Dell UP2720Q – good choice?

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  • #22731

    charlesss
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    Hello, I would like to know your opinion, especially from @Vincent and other experienced users/developers of DisplayCAL, about the new UP2720Q monitor. According to this review: https://photographylife.com/reviews/dell-up2720q it’s really good in terms of both uniformity and colour accuracy.

    Please kindly comment on the monitor and the review itself.

    #22732

    Vincent
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    First of all IDNK which LED backlight type is inside that UP. Given the relatively low contrast seem a common IPS panel (not a Pana 1500:1 like those in newer CGs or PAs), also given the lack of P3 coverage reviewer’s guess about GB-LED backlight (or RG_phosphor in Xrite EDR family) seems an educated guess. No problem there.

    Uniformity is OK but IDNK if it was tested with uniformity compensation (UC) ON or OFF and UC incompatibilities with OSD modes. It seems that UC and CAL1/CAL2 are compatible in this UP2720, wich is good, very good.
    Also we do not know contrast with that setting. It’s no problem with photo editing for printing, but if you end with 600:1 @D65 for video spending $2000…bad deal. IDNK if UC was on or off, that +X% brightenes on corners is usually found with UC on, but on the other side goes down so IDNK. Ask in comments.

    Factory calibrated modes present the same grey issues as seen in ther UPs, but this one is better, range barely under 2. This could be noticiable visually while inspecting a grey gradient under no color management.
    After using Dells HW calibration suite range is not as good as the one you can get with GPU with dithering+DisplayCAL, but it gets better that factory cal.  This is a know issue with Dell or Benq software: if uncalibrated panel has grey range issues, you need more patches in calibration stage. DUCCS takes up to 20 per RGB ramp, IDNK how many measuremenst are taken with this new software for integrated colorimeter. Ask reviwer.

    Seems a huge improvement over former Dells… also it’s $2000. QC has a price. Before buying try to find out if CS2740 (27″ UHD 1000:1) is available and its price because of range issues even when using HW cal (it could be better if dell software uses more calibration patches). CS range should be under 1 or about 1.

    #22766

    charlesss
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    EIZO is not available in my area, so I have every limited options. Do you think the UP2720Q would be a good option?

    #22780

    Vincent
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    I’m not sure about that new Dell HW cal software, IDNK it, I know old DUCCS, hence I cannot spot potential problems in it if by chance “factory preconditioning” is not as good as reviewed unit, so for me there are some unknowns.

    Anyway, uniformity seems OK and can be used with CAL x HW cal monitors so if you buy this one just remember that a GPU with dithering and an i1displaypro can solve most common issues using DisplayCAL.
    Also if you need it to work with video ask reviewer about constrast with UC on and UC off, that cannot be corrected or improved afterwards.

    i1Display Pro on Amazon  
    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

    #22782

    charlesss
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    Hello! I know this monitor is almost useless for video editing due to low brightness, low contract and lack of any HDR support.

    Fortunately, we only consume video and our creative work is limited to vector graphics and photo editing. Honestly, we would love to use only the hardware calibration with the built-in colorimeter. That would allow us to now install any additional software and get accurate colours with all devices, including mobile phones and tablets.

    Assuming, the review example was not selected super-extra unit and was representative for the product quality, do you think the hardware calibration via built-in colorimeter (https://photographylife.com/reviews/dell-up2720q#hardware-calibration-via-built-in-colorimeter) is accurate enough for photo printing and vector graphics?

    #22784

    Vincent
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    Hello! I know this monitor is almost useless for video editing due to low brightness, low contract and lack of any HDR support.

    That is a requirement for HDR video, not for video. For video a “starting point” is to limit gamut to Rec709 and set typical gamma configurations 2.2/2.4 (video editors without color management) and get less that 0.10cd/m2 black at typical white level 100cd/m2 @D65 (>1000:1). This UP may be limited in last check, other checks should get a PASS.

    Fortunately, we only consume video and our creative work is limited to vector graphics and photo editing. Honestly, we would love to use only the hardware calibration with the built-in colorimeter. That would allow us to now install any additional software and get accurate colours with all devices, including mobile phones and tablets.

    I did not understand that. If you need to simulate in Photoshop or other tools how things will look on a set of mobile phones or tablests with a few clicks you’ll need an independent measurement device, typically an i1DisplayPro and a i1Studio/i1Pro2. If mobile/tablet default internet browser do not mess with color you can profile them remotely using DisplayCAL (XYZLUT with >400 patches IMHO, make sure to turn off autodimming). Use this profile for simulations (softproofing with “keep RGB numbers” to see how things will look in these devices with no color management)

    Other more advanced monitors like NEC PAs allow you to load profiles from another device or simplified colorpace descriptions (RGB coordinates + white + gamma) and simulate them on the fly in one of the 5 to 10 preset for these task (although newer ones rely on factory calibration if you use free software from manufacturer). PA311D should be arround 2500 euro (32 DCI-4K 1500:1) in some EU stores. That could be useful for Android developers while running debuging apps in their simulators sinec AFAIK none of them are color managed but IDNK much about that field (Android).

    IDNK if UP2720 has more that 2 slots CAL1/CAL2 to store those customized simulations you name. 2 slots may be enough for typical editing (sRGB/Rec709 emulation in one, native/AdobeRGB in other… although you are limited to one whitepoint for widegamut modes without a 3rd CAL3)… but IMHO they are too few if you plan to simulate several mobile/tabets on the fly without using Photoshop softproof (or tools with same fucntionality)

    Integrated colorimeter saves time if you have several HW calibratable monitors at your office, and you can schedule unattended calibration to some colorspace when people is not working. Otherwise they are not a “saving” since they are less useful than external tools.

    Assuming, the review example was not selected super-extra unit and was representative for the product quality, do you think the hardware calibration via built-in colorimeter (https://photographylife.com/reviews/dell-up2720q#hardware-calibration-via-built-in-colorimeter) is accurate enough for photo printing and vector graphics?

    Under those assumptions I would say that UP2720Q would be a very nice display for photo editing & vector graphics, but I would buy an i1DisplayPro too.

    #22787

    charlesss
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    That is a requirement for HDR video, not for video. For video a “starting point” is to limit gamut to Rec709 and set typical gamma configurations 2.2/2.4 (video editors without color management) and get less that 0.10cd/m2 black at typical white level 100cd/m2 @D65 (>1000:1). This UP may be limited in last check, other checks should get a PASS.

    First of all, the static contrast of the UP2720Q is too low even for SDR production and secondly, producing SRD content only does not make any sense now as Netflix, Amazon and even YouTube push strongly towards 4K HDR content.

    I did not understand that. If you need to simulate in Photoshop or other tools how things will look on a set of mobile phones or tablests with a few clicks you’ll need an independent measurement device, typically an i1DisplayPro and a i1Studio/i1Pro2. If mobile/tablet default internet browser do not mess with color you can profile them remotely using DisplayCAL (XYZLUT with >400 patches IMHO, make sure to turn off autodimming). Use this profile for simulations (softproofing with “keep RGB numbers” to see how things will look in these devices with no color management)

    No, I just meant that a friend could come with his or hers uncalibrated computer, or I can connect my uncalibrated tablet and get pretty accurate colours if the whole calibration is done in the display on the hardware level. That is very convenient if you wish to switch between devices.

    Integrated colorimeter saves time if you have several HW calibratable monitors at your office, and you can schedule unattended calibration to some colorspace when people is not working. Otherwise they are not a “saving” since they are less useful than external tools.

    It may save time because, everybody can do it at once. If you want to calibrate two UP2718Q, which we already have, you need to double the time or buy two colorimeters. UP2720Q has built-in measuring device and calibration software, so you calibrate all displays at the same time.

    I already have i1DisplayPro and i1Studio, but the idea to calibrate display no matter the source is really quite tempting.

    There was also pre-production model UP3221Q shown at CES 2020. It will also have built-in colorimeter and, according to Dell, even more advanced built-in calibration software and also full HDR support (useless for me).

    UP3221Q will have 2,000 Mini LED local dimming backlight vs LED edge-light on the UP2720Q, any suggestions? UP2718Q has only 382 dimming zones and suffers from significant uniformity issues on low brightness settings and you can see some of the LED arrays.

    #22790

    Vincent
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    I did not understand that. If you need to simulate in Photoshop or other tools how things will look on a set of mobile phones or tablests with a few clicks you’ll need an independent measurement device, typically an i1DisplayPro and a i1Studio/i1Pro2. If mobile/tablet default internet browser do not mess with color you can profile them remotely using DisplayCAL (XYZLUT with >400 patches IMHO, make sure to turn off autodimming). Use this profile for simulations (softproofing with “keep RGB numbers” to see how things will look in these devices with no color management)

    No, I just meant that a friend could come with his or hers uncalibrated computer, or I can connect my uncalibrated tablet and get pretty accurate colours if the whole calibration is done in the display on the hardware level. That is very convenient if you wish to switch between devices.

    I see, you want a reference display to connect devices with uncalibrated displays. I understood that you want to simulate other display (and one way to do that is as i described)

    Integrated colorimeter saves time if you have several HW calibratable monitors at your office, and you can schedule unattended calibration to some colorspace when people is not working. Otherwise they are not a “saving” since they are less useful than external tools.

    It may save time because, everybody can do it at once. If you want to calibrate two UP2718Q, which we already have, you need to double the time or buy two colorimeters. UP2720Q has built-in measuring device and calibration software, so you calibrate all displays at the same time.

    I already have i1DisplayPro and i1Studio, but the idea to calibrate display no matter the source is really quite tempting.

    There was also pre-production model UP3221Q shown at CES 2020. It will also have built-in colorimeter and, according to Dell, even more advanced built-in calibration software and also full HDR support (useless for me).

    UP3221Q will have 2,000 Mini LED local dimming backlight vs LED edge-light on the UP2720Q, any suggestions? UP2718Q has only 382 dimming zones and suffers from significant uniformity issues on low brightness settings and you can see some of the LED arrays.

    Static contrast ratio of 1000:1 at panel will have halo problems if you use FALD. There was an issue with Apple XDR display and they were forced to pass an OS update to disable FALD when XDR was set to SDR modes. You can see videos at Lift Gamma Gain
    That tech is not ready for HDR with common IPS panels, if you want HDR you’ll need to go to super high contrast VA like TVs… or “double panel” from Panasonic at very expenive price. Otherwise “non FALD” SDR IPS 1500:1 from Panasonic is the safest choice (newer CGs or newer PAs, maybe other manufacturers use that tech but IDNK), or TV WOLED + LUT3D for Rec709 content.

    #22792

    charlesss
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    I see, you want a reference display to connect devices with uncalibrated displays. I understood that you want to simulate other display (and one way to do that is as i described)

    No, I do not need to simulate other devices, it just would be great to share display with co-workers or business partners from time to time and connect uncalibrated devices knowing that high colour accuracy can be maintained by the monitor itself.

    I also presume that hardware calibration with built-in colorimeter is the way to avoid banding, right? I have banding issues with UP2718Q when calibrated with DisplayCAL, most likely due to hardware limitation of Intel iGPU or software limitation of Intel drivers. If I have completely uncalibrated computer connected to hardware-calibrated UP2720Q, I should get accurate colours and no banding at the same time, right?

    Static contrast ratio of 1000:1 at panel will have halo problems if you use FALD. There was an issue with Apple XDR display and they were forced to pass an OS update to disable FALD when XDR was set to SDR modes. You can see videos at Lift Gamma Gain
    That tech is not ready for HDR with common IPS panels, if you want HDR you’ll need to go to super high contrast VA like TVs… or “double panel” from Panasonic at very expenive price. Otherwise “non FALD” SDR IPS 1500:1 from Panasonic is the safest choice (newer CGs or newer PAs, maybe other manufacturers use that tech but IDNK), or TV WOLED + LUT3D for Rec709 content.

    I do not need HDR and I never exceed average brightness of 200 cd/m², I just wonder if dimming arrays or edge-light are somehow inherently flawed or not? Is dimming array the superior technology by its design or it has become popular only due to HDR becoming popular as well. In other words, is it worth to wait for UP3221Q or should UP2720Q be fine if I do not need HDR and bigger size?

    #22801

    Vincent
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    I see, you want a reference display to connect devices with uncalibrated displays. I understood that you want to simulate other display (and one way to do that is as i described)

    No, I do not need to simulate other devices, it just would be great to share display with co-workers or business partners from time to time and connect uncalibrated devices knowing that high colour accuracy can be maintained by the monitor itself.

    OK, no problem just copy ICC profiles to other people’s laptops and when pluged to your display, make sure taht it is selected as default display profile in their OSes, if there is such option (not sure about android)

    I also presume that hardware calibration with built-in colorimeter is the way to avoid banding, right?

    It is HW cal what prevents banding in non color managed enviroment, not internal colorimeter. There could be some banding in color managed apps even with HW cal due to limited precision in color transformations but this is not monitors fault.

    HW cal should present no banding at all with no color management. For color managed issues try to use “simple” profiles if they are accurate enough.

    Same holds for your UP2718Q, it will the same with UP2720Q or an Eizo or a NEC… but some of these monitors’ calibration software make that kind of simplified profiles by default… and their range is better that 1.5x or at least is expected to behave that way if they do not want to customers repack them and send them back to store (I’d do).

    Sorry, I do not remember if you try DUCCS with an i1displaypro and “matrix” profile type. If you do not you should, it can solve your issues

    I have banding issues with UP2718Q when calibrated with DisplayCAL, most likely due to hardware limitation of Intel iGPU or software limitation of Intel drivers.

    Yes, expected. I hope that smeday intel will solve these issues now they are going to desktop GPUs.

    If I have completely uncalibrated computer connected to hardware-calibrated UP2720Q, I should get accurate colours and no banding at the same time, right?

    In non color managed apps, yes. Maybe a slight range (slight color tint in grey, but no banding) about 1.5 seen in many older U, UPs and in that review.

    Static contrast ratio of 1000:1 at panel will have halo problems if you use FALD. There was an issue with Apple XDR display and they were forced to pass an OS update to disable FALD when XDR was set to SDR modes. You can see videos at Lift Gamma Gain
    That tech is not ready for HDR with common IPS panels, if you want HDR you’ll need to go to super high contrast VA like TVs… or “double panel” from Panasonic at very expenive price. Otherwise “non FALD” SDR IPS 1500:1 from Panasonic is the safest choice (newer CGs or newer PAs, maybe other manufacturers use that tech but IDNK), or TV WOLED + LUT3D for Rec709 content.

    I do not need HDR and I never exceed average brightness of 200 cd/m², I just wonder if dimming arrays or edge-light are somehow inherently flawed or not? Is dimming array the superior technology by its design or it has become popular only due to HDR becoming popular as well. In other words, is it worth to wait for UP3221Q or should UP2720Q be fine if I do not need HDR and bigger size?

    FALD with 1000:1 or even more static contrast ratio with a few hunders or thousands zones is flawled and causes halos.
    They use with HDR because they can lit those zones more and reach HDR600/800/1000 while some parts of screen remain at low black level, but in THAT zone back pixels are boing to bright at 1/1000 of that 600/800/1000… hence halos.
    Look in Lift Gamma Gain forum and see some videos for Apple XDR (a little more pronunced than visually due to camera).

    So *I* would not care about some 32 screen with 1000:1 SCR and FALD HDR unless I can disable FALD completely

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #22857

    Mindas
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    Seems a huge improvement over former Dells… also it’s $2000. QC has a price. Before buying try to find out if CS2740 (27″ UHD 1000:1) is available and its price because of range issues even when using HW cal (it could be better if dell software uses more calibration patches). CS range should be under 1 or about 1.

    Hello,

    I’m trying to find out more information about CS2740 availability in Europe, but no success… I see it’s available in Japan, but no signs in Europe.. Does anyone have some news or rumors?  Thanks!

    p.s. Does CG2730 and CG279x use the same 1500:1 Panasonic panels? It’s confusing, because in CG279x specs they mention 1300:1.

    #22864

    Vincent
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    Seems a huge improvement over former Dells… also it’s $2000. QC has a price. Before buying try to find out if CS2740 (27″ UHD 1000:1) is available and its price because of range issues even when using HW cal (it could be better if dell software uses more calibration patches). CS range should be under 1 or about 1.

    Hello,

    I’m trying to find out more information about CS2740 availability in Europe, but no success… I see it’s available in Japan, but no signs in Europe.. Does anyone have some news or rumors?  Thanks!

    No news. Ask official Eizo distribution channel in your country.

    p.s. Does CG2730 and CG279x use the same 1500:1 Panasonic panels? It’s confusing, because in CG279x specs they mention 1300:1.

    Looks like it has by default some mild UC in brightness when UC off (+-5% corners instead typical up to -10% on corners when off), hence the CR drop.

    #22879

    Mindas
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    Thanks for your answers Vincent, you’re always ready to help! 🙂

    Continuing the discussion about this two models CG2730 and CG279X.. Maybe it’s little of topic in this thread, but it bothers me much..

    I was reading forums, specifications and etc. but still I’m not really understand clearly regarding 3D LUTS. The main difference between these two models is that CG279X has capability to upload 3D LUT directly to the monitor.  And CG2730 needs extra 3D LUT box to load it. So no software (like LightSpace) is capable to load 3D LUT into CG2730 as there is no such hardware functionality, right? and Eizo’s ColorNavigator 7 does not work with 3D LUTS at all.

    So the question is: if I have CG279X with Color Navigator 7 I still cannot use 3D LUT functionality without extra paid software like LightSpace? It seems like to use full potential of CG279X I need extra paid instruments and software, without it – it becomes not much different like CG2730.

    As I understand so far,  in general all this 3D LUT thing is meaningful only in video production, let’s say Resolve. Otherwise Photoshop,  C1, Lightroom uses ICC profiles, right?

    My color management knowledge is quite amateur, no practice, so sometimes reading different sources is difficult to come to conclusions.

    #22880

    Vincent
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    Thanks for your answers Vincent, you’re always ready to help! 🙂

    Continuing the discussion about this two models CG2730 and CG279X.. Maybe it’s little of topic in this thread, but it bothers me much..

    I was reading forums, specifications and etc. but still I’m not really understand clearly regarding 3D LUTS. The main difference between these two models is that CG279X has capability to upload 3D LUT directly to the monitor.  And CG2730 needs extra 3D LUT box to load it. So no software (like LightSpace) is capable to load 3D LUT into CG2730 as there is no such hardware functionality, right? and Eizo’s ColorNavigator 7 does not work with 3D LUTS at all.

    These are LS claims, not Eizo’s. Anyway, you want to use a LUT3D when you want to capture IN DETAIL a display behavior so you can transform its behaviour to something else. If you have a HW 17x17x17 LUT3D, you need to measure N number of patches, then make color transformation for each triplet to another triplet that can behave like Rec709 g2.4 for example. If you take.. let say 9 patches + n grasycale… it would be almost equal to a simpler lut-matrix-lut. CN does not aim for 5000 patches so you cannot fill that 17x17x17 without using a huge number of interpolated data (idealized behavior).

    Old CN have simulation profiles, so after you calibrated your display to some base target you can make it simulate something else. That looks like a LUT3D in the same way NEC Multiprofiler does. It is not a “LUT3D made from raw measurements that capture actual behavior in detail” but a “idealized calibration colorspace from CN calibration” transformed/simulating “some other colorspace”. It’s like if you made some good 1D calibration with DIsplayCAL and a single curve+matrix profile… and use that simple profile as input for LUT3D maker in DisplayCAL. At the end of the process you have a LUT3D , but from highly idealized data.

    LS mumbo jumbo names that “no LUT3D” because “profile”(display behavior descriptior) you use as input for making that LUT3D is highly idealized instead of a lot of actual measurements… so that LUT3D is not as accureate as it “could”/”was meant to” be.

    It’s the same with NEC Multiprofiler. It’s using LUT3D, no doubt (it simulates printer profiles), but input data (display description) is somehow idealized. Even if you use Spectarview II to update factory default description of display, it is not made from 17x17x17= 5000 patches, it’s simpler/idealized with just a few ones.

    So the question is: if I have CG279X with Color Navigator 7 I still cannot use 3D LUT functionality without extra paid software like LightSpace? It seems like to use full potential of CG279X I need extra paid instruments and software, without it – it becomes not much different like CG2730.

    As I understand so far,  in general all this 3D LUT thing is meaningful only in video production, let’s say Resolve. Otherwise Photoshop,  C1, Lightroom uses ICC profiles, right?

    LUT3D is a way of making some device look the closest you can to certain colorspace (just that colorspace, if you want other, youll need new LUT3D data). That is useful in non color managed apps, like most video editors… or game developers with certain CAD/CAM modeling tool… or mobile developers trying to simulate on the fly how looks their app several devices running a (not color managed) simulator.

    For color managed apps based on profiles, you’ll need profiles EVEN if your display is a PERFECT match to some colorspace like AdobeRGB because of an underlying LUT3D calibration. Why? because if you open a sRGB image you’ll need to color transform its RGB numbers to your device RGB numbers….and if you are simulating a printer+paper this transformation is not a simple one like the prevous sample of a perfect AdobeRGB display showing an sRGB image.

    Usually after caibration (unless bugs like PA271Q) these CG/PAs behave extremely well so a simple single curve+matrix profile describes them with high accuracy = simple/idealized profiles are valid to describe after calibration status.
    That means these profiles could be accurate as input for a LUT3D for simulating another device like a tablet. Do you need such functionality in no color managed apps? yes? pay one of these.
    That also means that you can simulate printer+paper with that simple/idealized profile like you do in PS.

    The higher price comes for this features: a supposed better integrated colorimeter, to be able to verify better way (“simple” CGs did not support some profile verification with integraed probe), better out of the box uniformity (brightness mostly)… and to be abe to use 3rd part HW cal software that can make use of 5000 measurements.
    It’s about 300 euro. IDNK if you need these features.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #22882

    Mindas
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    Takes time to digest everything 🙂

    So in general, using CN or NEC SV we aim at quite low number of patches and in between it’s using idealized data. And you mean, like when using CG/PA series monitors it’s usually we getting “enough” accurate results. Right? And these simulation profiles sRGB, AdobeRGB, REC 709 is again something “idealized transformation from factory”.   Time by time we are updating base profile using integrated colorimeter and after we have correct BASE, these built-in simulations do idealized transforms to particular space AdobeRGB, REC 709 etc. Do I understand correct?

    So with CG2730 I have just these built-in 3DLUT simulations and I cannot upload in-monitor the custom made 3DLUT let’s say from DisplayCAL with huge amount of actually measured patches. Also cannot simulate another device or printer+paper in no color managed app.

    And how this impact color managed apps like Resolve, which I use to edit and grade some videos? Let’s say I’m working in REC 709 color space, so using CG2730 after calibrating the base – I just switch REC 709 simulation in monitor and also load same REC 709 profile in Resolve (let it know how to transform colors correctly).

    So if I’m using JUST color-managed apps,  CG279X has  only one main benefit of using very-accurate 3DLUTs from  DisplayCAL calculation with actually measured 5000 patches. Right? and in that case I need i1Display colorimeter or I can use integrated one..

    For example in CG2730 we have “Preset Modes: Adobe RGB, sRGB, Calibration, Custom”, so

    Calibration=base profile,

    Custom= using CN I can calculate “simple/low-patch-count idealized” BT.2020, BT.709 or HLG_BT.2100 etc.,  and upload in slot (without comfortably having separate slot for every profile)

    Simply talking, my needs are Lightroom, C1 and Photoshop and printing with photographic large format printers (would like to predict print results more precisely) and editing videos with Resolve (I think mainly SDR, as HDR I think can be little too early for home enthusiasts as real HDR monitors seems morein experimental phase). As for now using 12 years old HP LP2475w..

    Will contemplate more  tomorrow, thanks and good night! 😉

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