Dell UP2716D Calibration Settings

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  • #24197

    InterrobangS
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    I have been doing a bit of looking around, and I have not been able to find a definitive answer to this first question, but it looks like this monitor is a GB-LED-backlit Phosphor LCD.  So should I be using the “Correction” setting “LCD GB-r-LED/RG Phospohor LED family…?

    As well, I am still learning about calibration (3 years down the track!), so in terms of best practice with DisplayCAL, do I set my monitor’s display profile in OSX Settings / Displays / Clour tab to Linear? This is what I used to do with the Colourmunki software.

    In order to keep using Uniformity Comp, I am opting not to adjust my RGB values on the monitor, so In displayCAL, when selecting “as measured” for the white point, how does the software know what my target whitepoint is?  Or is that determined by the REC 709 colour space I have set my 3d LUT “source colourspace” to (ie 6500k)?

    #24201

    Vincent
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    “Colormunki on OSX 10.15 using i1Studio”, I thought you have a munki design/photo, hence my recommendation of 3nm readings in the other thread.

    If you meant colormunki display, it’s a colorimeter and you can (should) choose a suitable colorimeter correction.
    UP2*16D models looks like an hybrid more close to the newer WLED PFS phosphor. There are user made corrections at 3nm that show typical red channel signature spikes but with a very raised floor:
    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/?get&type=ccss&manufacturer_id=DEL&display=DELL%20UP2716D&instrument=i1%20DisplayPro%2C%20ColorMunki%20Display%2C%20Spyder4&html=1
    Like this one:
    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/hash/a37f139913db8b8c7085cc1711dbcadd/Dell%2C%20DELL%20UP2716D%20%28ColorMunki%29.ccss
    (CCSS Dell, DELL UP2716D (ColorMunki) 3.3nm, 380-730nm (2020-03-03 17:16:49))

    Not sure about what you meant linear. Macos has a (faulty) color management system integrated in desktop and apple apps, so choose the closest TRC to native or to content in order to minimize unique grey level loss. This usually means 2.2.

    If you enable Unif. Comp. (UC) it seems that locks RGB gains. If you choose native /as measured in displaycal it means that Displaycal wont correct it, just grey/gamma. Then it will measure calibrated display and make a profile at your requested level (simple matrix profile or thousands/hundred of patches XYZLUT). That profile is just a description of calibrated display + grey level calibration.
    When you make a lut3d that maps some content colorspace to a display colorspace you choose what to do with white. Relative intents keep display white. Abs colorimetric should transform whitepoint to content colorspace… at the expense of contrast. I would say that you won’t loose too much contrast because whietppoint correction but measure it. You’ll loose much more with UC=on.
    When UC=on contrast drops and when you UC in low cost displays it usually destroys a lot of contrast. For example you may end with 600:1 whcih is not what you want fro video. A 200 euro sRGB common display IPS/VA may get you better results and a more reasonable color uniformity (but same quality of brightness uniformity).

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    #24202

    InterrobangS
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    If you meant colormunki display, it’s a colorimeter and you can (should) choose a suitable colorimeter correction.
    UP2*16D models looks like an hybrid more close to the newer WLED PFS phosphor. There are user made corrections at 3nm that show typical red channel signature spikes but with a very raised floor:

    (CCSS Dell, DELL UP2716D (ColorMunki) 3.3nm, 380-730nm (2020-03-03 17:16:49))

    I have noticed a pretty horrible red in skin tones on my monitor.  It’s one of the reasons I’m looking into this to hard now.  Forgive me if I am ignorant of a lot of what you are talking about, but I am very technically minded and I am very interested in learning more.  Could you please explain a little more what “3nm” is, and when you say “raised floor”, does this mean a raised black floor yeah?  If there is a glossary thread, I would be happy to have a read through that.  I cannot find anything in a search.

    Not sure about what you meant linear. Macos has a (faulty) color management system integrated in desktop and apple apps, so choose the closest TRC to native or to content in order to minimize unique grey level loss. This usually means 2.2.

    I have a linear profile from X-rite, but not sure I trust it, as customer tech support has been 50/50 from them.  There is what looks like a native profile for my monitor in MAC OSX settings, called: DELL UP2716D, however, there are two of them and each looks different.  It looks like a few have been loaded somehow by mistake over the years.  I have a Hackintosh and my Home and System drive are split onto two different drives.  This could have something to do with it.  The same is true for my 2nd monitor.  Which would you pick off the attached list?

    If you enable Unif. Comp. (UC) it seems that locks RGB gains. If you choose native /as measured in displaycal it means that Displaycal wont correct it, just grey/gamma. Then it will measure calibrated display and make a profile at your requested level (simple matrix profile or thousands/hundred of patches XYZLUT). That profile is just a description of calibrated display + grey level calibration.
    When you make a lut3d that maps some content colorspace to a display colorspace you choose what to do with white. Relative intents keep display white. Abs colorimetric should transform whitepoint to content colorspace… at the expense of contrast. I would say that you won’t loose too much contrast because whietppoint correction but measure it. You’ll loose much more with UC=on.
    When UC=on contrast drops and when you UC in low cost displays it usually destroys a lot of contrast. For example you may end with 600:1 whcih is not what you want fro video. A 200 euro sRGB common display IPS/VA may get you better results and a more reasonable color uniformity (but same quality of brightness uniformity).

    Unfortunately, a lot of this is a bit over my head right now, but I understand a bit of it.  Basically, turn off UC and see what that is like.  I have thought my display is quite “pasty”.  not very contrasty.

    Lastly, I am aware that this is not a perfect monitor for colour critical work, but I am a one-man-band filmmaker, who works professionally for small to medium businesses, and I cannot afford a $5000+ monitor.  Do you think that I can still get some ok results with this monitor?  Or should I be looking at upgrading?

    I have recently installed a Decklink mini monitor 4k.  But because of the lockdown here in NZ, I think I will hold off on a monitor upgrade.  I was thinking about getting the Eizo ColorEdge CG2420 or CS2420.  This would receive the signal from the decklink.

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    #24204

    InterrobangS
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    These are the two different profiles that look like they may be native profiles for this monitor:

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    #24208

    InterrobangS
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    In latest news, I have calibrated and profiled this display, with UC off and one of the above profiles active before calibration.  Target WP of 6500

    I would say that that red/magenta over-exaggeration is still there.  And overall the contrast looks actually a little worse (less contrasty) compared to a previous calibration with i1Studio. Although it is mostly in the blacks, by the looks of it.  Whites look less bright.

    #24209

    Vincent
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    -Raised floor means spectral power distribution for max output red channel (like in 255 red or white). “i” button next to spectral corrections allow you see them and compare them to the newer WLED PFS. It’s not related at all to black or contrast.

    -if UC=off renders huge color cast across the screen you’ll have to enable UC and live with crippled contrast, or look for a cheap sRGB alternative (200euro 24″, 3xx some 27″ QHD) instead going for another cheap widegamut. IMHO uniformity is so bad in most models thta all those low cost widegamuts shoud be avoided, YMMV.

    -IDNK what is that linear profile. If it’s an ICC v2 you can see profile information with DisplayCAL (macOS shouws it too but in a worse way).
    If you assing that profile as default profile and displaycal settings are defaults or current and press “i” buton you can see profile info. Take a look on gamut (if it does or does not look like native gamut in UPs, bigger than AdobeRGB covering most of P3 red) and TRC. Let’s see how looks that TRC in that “linear profile”.
    Eizo equivalent (maybe a llittle less contrast) is CS2731 and should be about 1000euro, 27″ QHD. Color uniformity should be fawless out of the box without UC (less than 2deltaC if you make an uniformity report with displaycal).
    Still IDNK your display actual contrast and calibrated TRC.

    -So I would calibrate that UP, proper spectral correction, default settings for macOS to avoid issues due their buggy desktop color management. That won’t correct white point. If you correct whitepoint since OSD controsl are locked white will be corrected by lowering 1 or 2 channel max output, hence brightness drop. There is no other way with OSD locked controls. You can raise brightness in advance to compensate it, but black luminance will raise too.
    If you want to use Resolve follow Resolve faq/doc in displaycal. When making a LUT3D keep in midn what i’ve explained about whitepoint: you can keep current native white (relative) or try to get D65 (absolute with rec709 as source). Also avoid rec1886 with all those IPS displays, even with an Eizo. By definition (look for rec1886 in google) it raises TRC (“lower gamma”) in low contrast displays. Even a 1500:1 can be labeled as low contrast for rec1886. If you want Rec1886 use 2.4 instead.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Vincent.
    #24211

    Vincent
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    I forgot something important. Your display has HW calibration. Eizo CS have HW calibration too… but you’ll need to buy an i1displaypro.
    Your munki display (if you own a colorimeter, not a munki photo) is like an i1displaypro, but slower AND REJECTED by most 3rd party apps including those with HW cal support. Unfortunately AFAIK you cannot use HW cal and UC=on in those UP2*16D. But keep in mind that of you switch to a better widegamut display(*) you should buy an i1displaypro to get the best of it.
    People who plan of who does not discard getting a monitor with HW CAL in near future should avoid to buy colormunki displays or i1display studio colorimeters. Get the more expensive i1dispaypro instead, otherwise you’ll have to paid it twice.
    (unfortunatelly for Wacom Cintiq it looks like you’ll have to paid it twice, their own i1display pro rebranded version taht may not work with other software… that xrite licensing policy sucks… but better to know it in advance)

    (*) if you ACTUALLY need a widegamut display. IDNK what are your display requirements. There are cheap resasonably good sRGB displays 27″ QHD (like Benq PD series). There are even some of those models with HW cal like some Viewsonics or EA series from NEC… but again you’ll need an i1displaypro (and paid some software for NEC)

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Vincent.
    #24222

    InterrobangS
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    Thanks so much for all your information, Vincent.  I have had this monitor for a year and I really had no idea just how inappropriate it was for semi-accurate colour work.  I’ve never been happy with the colours, but I’d always thought that was more to do with my colour management.

    I am essentially feeling like a replacement monitor is the only realistic option for me moving forward.  I will keep what I have for UI and get a ref monitor to output from I/O card.  I am on the fence about getting another PC monitor, because I spent so much time doing research on this monitor, and ended up getting something completely inappropriate, by the looks of it.  There just seems to be so many variables.  I think I would rather go with something that has been recommended specifically for colour grading and that is known to get good calibration/profiling results.  So by the sounds of it if I did go PC monitor, we’re looking at an Eizo (which for a 4k version is around NZD$12k), or something like a LG OLED which I can find in country for $1500.

    Thanks for the colourimeter tip as well.

    #24225

    Vincent
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    It can be good enough but for photo work. Just ensure that visually uniformity is OK when UC on. Since for rpinting & such contrast is not usually a problem, just use GPU to get your desired whitepoint. You have an AMD, those card have high bidepth luts & dithering so even through an 8bit DVI connection & whitepoint cotrrected by GPU you can get non color managed smooth gradients like it was HW cal.
    Buy you use macOS … and whitepoint calibration through GPU may render some issues in apps that use macOS color managenent, hence default setup for macOS in displayCAL. Since people usually need apps like CaptureOne or Lr or Adobe PS that rely on their own CM engine, it’s not an issue inside those apps.

    But if you need a reliable vidoe monitor and your dell has visible color uniformity issues and UC=on criples contrast (still IDNK which contrast ratio did you get)… then there are better solutions.
    “Video guys” usually aim for the newer CG and their 1500:1 , even cheapest ones without embeded LUT3D (CG2420, CG2730). Those displays even UC=off shoudl be good and you’ll get black under 0.10 at typical 100nit setup.
    AFAIK 27″ UHD Eizo CS2740 is 1000:1, “common” IPS regarding contrast but widegamut and good uniformity out of the box. The expensive UHD is the 32″ model, a CG model again. CS/CG and their contrast differences is Eizo’s market segmentation.

    #24236

    InterrobangS
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    It can be good enough but for photo work. Just ensure that visually uniformity is OK when UC on.

    Did you mean when UC is off?

    Since for rpinting & such contrast is not usually a problem, just use GPU to get your desired whitepoint. You have an AMD, those card have high bidepth luts & dithering so even through an 8bit DVI connection & whitepoint cotrrected by GPU you can get non color managed smooth gradients like it was HW cal.

    Who do you use the GPU to get desired white point?

    Buy you use macOS … and whitepoint calibration through GPU may render some issues in apps that use macOS color managenent, hence default setup for macOS in displayCAL. Since people usually need apps like CaptureOne or Lr or Adobe PS that rely on their own CM engine, it’s not an issue inside those apps.

    I mainly use Resolve for everything.  A little bit of Affinity Designer and On1 Photo RAW.  I’ll look into how those manage col,our, but I’m mostly concerned about getting Resolve properly colour managed.

    But if you need a reliable vidoe monitor and your dell has visible color uniformity issues and UC=on criples contrast (still IDNK which contrast ratio did you get)… then there are better solutions.

    What do you mean by which contrast ratio did I get?  The TRC that I started the calibration with?  Or the setting that I chose?  I chose Gamma 2.2.  My workstation is in a brightly lit room, and so are most of the clients’ and their customers’ screens that I would output to.

    “Video guys” usually aim for the newer CG and their 1500:1 , even cheapest ones without embeded LUT3D (CG2420, CG2730). Those displays even UC=off shoudl be good and you’ll get black under 0.10 at typical 100nit setup.
    AFAIK 27″ UHD Eizo CS2740 is 1000:1, “common” IPS regarding contrast but widegamut and good uniformity out of the box. The expensive UHD is the 32″ model, a CG model again. CS/CG and their contrast differences is Eizo’s market segmentation.

    I output almost exclusively to web/social media.  From what you’re saying it sounds like wide gamut monitors are always a problem because of uniformity.  I think the only option to me right now is to get a low-grade sRGB monitor until I can afford an Eizo.  But I can’t figure out how to search for a good sRGB monitor, because that seems like it’s quite “old school”.  Everything is wide gamut.  Everything is +90% of Adobe RGB or P3.  Everything that is just sRGB seems like it’s just a really low quality screen.  Every manufacturer’s marketing is boasting about how many colours it has sort how wide the gamut is even when it is not that wide.  So how do I know exactly what is NOT a wide gamut monitor?  Can you give any suggestions?

    I have three more questions, please (I will make another donation today, I really appreciate your time and advice):

    1. Should I be worried about downscaling my image? I work exclusively in 4k.  So should I really be looking at a 4k reference monitor, or can I get away with a 1080 Eizo for colour work?
    2. I have a Portkeys BM5 field monitor.  Images look great on this and I have done a calibration and profile on it, which seemed to looked quite good.  Is it worth using this as a reference monitor in the meantime? These are the specs of the BM5:
    3. And if I was planning to get a 7inch field monitor like a SmallHD, what would be the disadvantages of using that as an at-home reference monitor (I would find a 10-bit one of course)?
    #24237

    Vincent
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    For photo work try the best escenario, UC=on, because contrast does not matter so much and if it fails… there is nothing you can do. Well, one: get a replacement.

    Regarding whitepoint: DisplayCAL does it for you if you cannot fix OSD gains to your desired target. But you use mac and that has some unwanted effects described in other threads and related to faulty Apple color management engine.

    Regarding contrast, TRC: measure/validate/verify it. DisplayCAL is not limited to calibration it can actually test your screen in several ways. Read doc.

    “From what you’re saying it sounds like wide gamut monitors are always a problem because of uniformity. “ A very high, very very high % of “low cost” units will have those issues with the exception of mac ones (macbook, imac, but limited to P3 and locked whitepoint) and CS/CG EIzos or NEC PAs. QC is a matter of money.
    Benq PD series and current “U” series from Dell are some samples of sRGB monitors, reasonable prices and proper QC for what you pay. NEC has EA series (HWCal) and Eizo has EV series. HP/Asus/Viewsonic have their own series, IDNK all names.

    1. 4k you meant DCI-4k or UHD? DCI-4k + widegamut .. save at least 2500euro for NEC PA311D, it’s te cheapest. Then CGs.
      UHD+widegamut you have CS2740.
      UHD+sRGB/Rec709 you have Benq PD****U and “current” Dell U****Q or P****Q, 500 euro maybe?. NEC has one EA but is a little bigger than sRGB, nothing that a LUT3D in resolve cannot correct. Eizo has some EV series UHD but too expensive for what they offer
    2. IDNK gamut, much bigger than sRGB means “no common WLED”, so you’ll need some colorimeter correctio for whatever backlight tecnology is has. IDNK which one.
    3. Same as 2. If you plan to use a munki or i1displaypro, you need a correction for its backlight tech. Displaycal and other tools are bundled with a few ones, Displaycal has the most extensive catalog. If SmallHD is a “Rec709/sRGB only” display, common correction “Whiet LED IPS Samsung ect.,..” bundled in DIsplayCAL will do the work.
    #24338

    InterrobangS
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    Thanks again Vincent

    I’m not sure why you keep mentioning “photo work”.  I work primarily in video.

    So I am going to purchase a BenQ PD3400U.  From your suggestions and what is available here and in my price range, I think this is the best solution for me.  Do you think it is the right choice?   Or is there any other monitor in those you suggestions that you would specifically recommend?

    Lastly, I am thinking of upgrading the colorimeter to the i1Pro3.  DO you think there is much advantage to this over the ColourmunkiDisplay?  Or is it just X-rite’s marketing?

    #24339

    Vincent
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    Thanks again Vincent

    I’m not sure why you keep mentioning “photo work”.  I work primarily in video.

    Because it is the only kind of work where a display with crippled contrast due to UC=on can be useful

    So I am going to purchase a BenQ PD3400U.  From your suggestions and what is available here and in my price range, I think this is the best solution for me.  Do you think it is the right choice?   Or is there any other monitor in those you suggestions that you would specifically recommend?

    IDNK that model. 34″? is some kind of UHD in horizontal but 1440 height?
    Anyway PD series from Benq are reasonably priced sRGB displays. I would say that you pay what you get with them, their price is fair. Color uniformity (green pink tints ) “should” be small but expect some brigtness drop or bleeding in corners. It’s expected.
    A P3 alternative in 32″ UHD if you are going to sit in front of it and not too close is one of Benq cheap VA (like TVs), for example EW3270U. 2000-3000:1 contrast. Off angle you’lls see typical gamma shift of VAs (brighter). up to 400euro, fair for its price, reasonably color uniformity for a widegamut. It uses WLED PFS backlight, you you can measure it with a munki display and “Panasonic VVX****** 95% P3” colorimeter correction, it’s bundled with DisplayCAL.
    PD series are common sRGB WLED “WHite LED IPS*****” colorimeter correction.

    Lastly, I am thinking of upgrading the colorimeter to the i1Pro3.  DO you think there is much advantage to this over the ColourmunkiDisplay?  Or is it just X-rite’s marketing?

    I1pro3 IS NOT a colorimeter, it’s a spectrophotometer, a very expensive one, much more than Eizo CS2731. Also it is not supported by DisplayCAL and AFAIK it won’t be supported in near future.

    i1displaypro, the “unlocked” & fast version of your colormunki display, is a colorimeter. The whole family of that HW, with some rebranded versions for NEC or Spectracalk is called “i1display3″/”i1d3”

    I think that you are mixing or confusing names and you meant “i1displaypro”, the same thing you own right now but unlocked. If you buy a Benq PD (sRGB) or that P3 VA (EW3270U) you can keep your munki display. If you buy an Eizo CS or a NEC PA you’ll need the i1displaypro if you want HW calibration.

    #24340

    InterrobangS
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    Sorry, I did mean the PD3200U model.

    What would be the reason for choosing the P3 alternative?  Wider gamut.  Future-proofing for P3 and HDR workflow?

    Why does this monitor avoid the disadvantages of a wide-gamut monitor issues discussed previously in your replies?

    And what would be the advantage or disadvantage of the EW3270U over the PD3200U?

    I only view my monitor from straight on, so viewing angles are not so important to me.

    #24345

    Vincent
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    EW is not HDR, it’s SDR. It may accept HDR sugnal (IDNK), but it is not HDR and internally will map HDR signal to SDR+P3 native gamut.It could be good for consuming HDR content with some rolloff, but I think it is not meant to grade HDR with it.
    There are some user reviews online with displaycal uniformity report. Aceptable for their price. the QC gap seems to happen when you move towards AdobeRGB green primary. Maybe there is a significant cost doing that, so QC gets too relaxed if you plan to keep some price target.
    WLED PFS family is very close between siblings but as you move green SPD towards AdobeRGB price goes up ( 95% P3 -> P3 MAC -> graphic arts WLED PFS like Eizo CGs or Nec PAs). All of them use the same “type” of WLED PFS backlight, just diferent green SPD. You can see it by yourself using DIsplayCAL SPL plot (colorimeter correction combo, “i” button)

    Advantages of EW is contrast and less “ips glow” (black level rises with vieweing angle… like in corners in some IPS)
    Disadvantages of EW are worse vieweing angle (gamma, corners if you are too close) and that you are forced to use color manageent for most tasks. IDNK how good is its sRGB gamut emulation from factory. But you should be acustomed to it since you have a UP.

    IDNK you one is more important to you. For Resolve only (no premiere or vegas) and owning a munki display EW3270U seems best option (you’ll use a software  LUT3D)
    Also try to buy where you can return since QC is somehow lottery in that price segment although chances to get a good one (EW/PD) are much higher than in UP(dell) SW(benq) segment.

    PD series seems a good option too.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Vincent.
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