Confusion about color managment

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  • #22184

    smokehrbar
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    Hi there. I would need some assistance about some topics you may all find stupidly simple. I spent a lot time reading and still i cannot grasp some concepts.

    I calibrated and profiled my AOC-AG352UCG6, I’m uploading the .cal and .icm. , gamma 2.2.
    The results, on the profile information tab, seem pretty good ( ACCURACY_dE76_avg 0.399482; ACCURACY_dE76_max 2.583148).
    I’m using this monitor with photo editing software (photoshop, lightroom).

    I’m working with sRGB photos in photoshop, that after export (in sRGB) look as expected in irfanview with the color management plugin (output to monitor profile) , but in chrome look way darker (noticeable in near-black tones), EXACTLY as “proof colors” with “monitor rgb” in photoshop. If the image is used as a background, it results in the latter “darker” effect. Firefox is fine (with faq settings).
    As I understood, Chrome is now color managed, but even if it was not, it would assume sRGB anyway; what am I missing? Why not colour managed applications (like the wallpaper itself) show a darker image, if it’s sRGB?

    Why soft-proofing with monitor rgb brings different color than the working window?
    Should I redo the calibration/profile process with different settings (single curve + matrix, sRGB instead of gamma 2.2)?
    Is there a way to bring chrome and photoshop together?

    Thank you for your attention, and excuse me because I know this problem is widely covered but I cannot uderstand it.

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    #22236

    Vincent
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    No color management = “monitor rgb” in photoshop = send RGB values in the image file to screen as they are.

    Hence Windows desktop, desktop wallpaper, Paint, and buggy/not working/profille type not supported apps like some browsers send RGB values to screen without color management transformations.

    It does not matter which monitor & calibration settings (unless some kind of “exact” match to sRGB with HW calibration showing sRGB images).

    Also:

    • “monitor rgb” in photoshop= softprofing how things will look without no color management in your display.
    • “some other display ICC” + photoshop softproof + “preserve RGB numbers” = softprofing how things will look without no color management in that display. Useful for predicting how things will look in some AMOLED phones/tablets if you have a widegamut, but with other “not exactly sRGB mobiles” should work too as long as your Photoshop display gamut is big enough. Those displays can be profiled remotely (web) with DisplayCAL and a browser with no color management .
    #22856

    Diko Jelev
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    I am not pretty sure what was your point, buuuut here is my issue:

    I exported a (DNG) from LR as a Jpg. Then reimported it again it was the same as the DNG, BUT in the apps below you might see that aside from PS maybe the closest (but not the same) color rendition was from IE 11. Yes, that’s right – IE stands for Internet Exlorer v11. My gama is 2.2 If you or anyone could elaborate on the versatile interpretations I am getting from an image with embeded color profile after DisplayCAL. No difference with or without Black Point drifting. Where did it all go wrong?

    Same image - different black

    #22863

    Vincent
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    -which display, which display profile?
    -which embeded profile when exporting?
    -which PS setup? (color policies)
    -which settings were applies over the image in PS (like softproof)?

    We do not know from your text.

    #22870

    Diko Jelev
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    I transition to the Xrite solution.

    However here are the profiles. IMHO the color profiles (if I understand correctly were v4, and not v2, additionally to some of the compensation mechanism (black or ambient) was the main problem. Check those if you can say. As for the PS – doesn’t matter, because I had it in Lr (lightroom) and as far as there it goes you can’t change the color profile of rendition of Lightroom. It gets what is on the display – otherwise for work it utilizes ProPhoto. And then there are the images, which in the exports were downed to sRGB. However it wasn’t the color space of the images, BECAUSE when I re-imported them in LR or opened in PS they would look as intended.

    My theory so far is that the profiles v4 could be mostly read by PS and LR and not by everyone else correctly.

    Here are they feel free to check and let me know. Having been on Datacolor and Xrite solution I was amazed how much more DisplayCal has to offer. It is amazing. But currently under pressure with work and for some time can’t afford to stall my work and still needed accurate results WYSWYG style instead of guessing how deep the black would be.

    I hope to return so the analyzes of these profiles would be valuable for me.

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    #22876

    Vincent
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    ArgyllCMS profiles are V2, no ICC v4 is needed.
    AFAIK “Very fast” takes less measurements than i1Profiler (half?), so resulting grey neutrality is not comparable.. and it will be user’s fault. With a fast device like an i1d3 take medium speed at least.
    Resulting gamma it’s wrong too (looks like it is not what you want),  ~2.8 in all displays, and looks like another user misconfiguration. Do not use ambient light settings if you did, they are not what you think they are, also they’re useless in a color managed envirement.

    This alone could cause your problems, but there is missing info too about editor (mis)configuration.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Vincent.
    #22883

    Diko Jelev
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    Thanks!

    Weird:

    1/ Why gamma 2.8 – I made it 2.4 for video. And since it made deep black issue re calibrated with 2.2. The profiles attached as the names state are for 2.2

    2/ Both times made above  2k patches and SLOW so it would end up above 2 houred session for each display.

    Why the precedence of manual 2.2 gamma settings has been overlapped by some idiotic ambient setting. And am not sure if I didn’t turned it off the second time. My ambient is a DARK ROOM. I even shut down any bright objects displayed on other two displays so they would stay dark (they are with black background).

    Anyways.

    Could there be something else? Because there was a difference in the black on application level.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Diko Jelev.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Diko Jelev.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by Diko Jelev.
    #22888

    Vincent
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    2) If display is more or less good, no need to use huge number of profiling patches.
    Calibration speed fixes grey at X number of patches, slower means more patches, slow=30min on an i1displaypro, medium should be under 20min.
    It takes the time you asked it.
    Single curve+matrix with under 1 hundred of calibration patches + medium speed (which should double i1profiler) = about 20min perhaps 15, per display.

    1) because you asked to look like 2.2 under some ambient light you may have set. It has no use in color managed apps, so do not use ambient light settings.

    Single curve+matrix + black point compensation enabled, medium speed if grey is not too bad uncalibrated, less than 1h for all displays.

    Of couse if you are on a mac (IDNK) you are limited by all the buggy color management system in all Apple apps so use default recommendation by displayCAL

    i1Display Pro on Amazon  
    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

    #22891

    Diko Jelev
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    Thanks! Quite informative.

    I am on Win 10 – 1909.

    Two more questions:

    2/ How did you see the 2.8 gamma within my profiles?

    2/And what is a “single curve+matrix“? Matrix is most probably the patches? And single curve is for gamma?

    #22892

    Vincent
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    -Profile store “after calibration” gamma (TRC), made from measurements (profiling stage, after grey calibration). DisplayCAL, profile info, chose “Tone Response Curve” in combo. It will plot it (y) vs L* gamma (x), but with mouse you can see gama value as you move through the ramp. About 2.8 +-

    -single curve store equal values for TRC in each channel, even if measurements say they’re slightly different. It’s a way to simplify color transformations made by color managed apps **if** grey after calibration is good, yours seems good, g2.8, but neutral so it should work.
    Matrix is a way to describe how big display colorspace is, a simple one that assumes some idealided behavior. XYZLUT is meant to capture irregularities. Same as with single TRC, it is meant to “cheat”/”simplify” things in color managed apps, so you cannot blame color management for most of artifacts you see.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Vincent.
    #22897

    Vincent
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    Without a detailed analysis, just by shape, this seems legit, but even at 3nm there is a “fog” in red channel. The guy who made it didn’t care to set D65 white.. but it does not matter for CCSS

    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/hash/2ba4ced08e78915fc1f8097e6509a901/DELL%20UP2516D%20-%20LEFT%20-%20CustomColor%20-%2033%20Brightness%20%28ColorMunki%29.ccss

    This one too:

    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/hash/eedbe44c1249d68f3a50eeb90e4e375c/Dell%2C%20DELL%20UP2516D%20%28i1%20Pro%202%29.ccss

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by Vincent.
    #22930

    Florian Höch
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    Internet Exlorer v11

    IE11, Edge and Chrome are not color managed. The only color managed browser is Firefox (with about:config tweaks, search the forum). The only two color managed applications from above are Photoshop and LR.

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