Windows over saturated profile ?

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  • #25881

    Christopher
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    After calibrating my monitor, and it is loading the ICM file; the colors in Windows are over saturated and bright ?

    Also where can I find the results of DeltaE for the display ?

    #25908

    Vincent
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    Windows desktop is not color managed. ICM (the GPU calibration istored within it) file just changes white & grey. Profile is not the cause ON WINDOWS DESKTOP. Also a lot of windows app ar not color managed like default WIndows10 photo app, thus cannot be used to appraise a lot of things, older windows image viewer is more reliable, google about how to activate it.
    Also a profile is only valid for the preset/configuration that was used to make it. If your display has a native colospace bigger than sRGB you cannot use a profile made at native gamut for an sRGB preset and viceversa

    Regarding your last question:

    -Delta E of display against the predicted behaviour of a custom profile (keep that relation in mind) can be checked with a  measurement report on last tab or tools menu. => Does my profile predict display behavior?
    -Delta E of HW calibration, factory calibration preset or displaycal GPU-uncalibrated display response against an arbitrary colorspace can be don in the same way ticking use simulation profile as display profile. => Does my HW calibration or factory calibration matches some target colorspace? => You cannot use it to test GPU calibration because GPU calibration will be cleaned duriong verification.
    -Delta E of display with some display profile attached on OS predicting its behavior when showing an image in an arbitrary colorspace  in a color managed image editing applitation of supposed not limited precission can be done in the same way choosing a simulation profile (image’s colospace) but DO NOT choosing it as display profile. => Does my display with THAT display profile associated to it shows accuarte colors in Photoshop showing an image with an ambeded profile of “X” colospace?

    These 3 are the main verifications you can do with DisplayCAL. As I said earlier this has little to notthing to do with oversaturated colors in Windows non color managed desktop/walpapwer/explorer/Office… etc.

    #25919

    Christopher
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    Also a profile is only valid for the preset/configuration that was used to make it. If your display has a native colospace bigger than sRGB you cannot use a profile made at native gamut for an sRGB preset and viceversa

    I don’t understand what you mean by;  the profile is only valid for the preset / configuration that was used to make it ?  I thought the profile could be used anywhere once it’s created. The iDisplay Pro asks that you level off the RGB values to; I assume, get an accurate calibration of the display.  Although when I have done just that, the colors in Windows are as mentioned over saturated and bright.

    If your display has a native colospace bigger than sRGB you cannot use a profile made at native gamut for an sRGB preset and viceversa

    Are you saying that if the display has a colorspace larger then sRGB but the profile was created in sRGB then the sRGB profile won’t be used for the display because the gamut for the display is larger ?

    -Delta E of display against the predicted behaviour of a custom profile (keep that relation in mind) can be checked with a  measurement report on last tab or tools menu. => Does my profile predict display behavior?

    ?

    #25923

    Vincent
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    1- No. It is valid ONLY for the seetings it was made from. If you change OSD preset it becaomes invalid unless you go back to original preset & settings.
    Display profiles or printer profiles are just “taylor made” measurements. If you change the shape of your body a taylor made suit won’t fit. Same here.
    Right now we have P3 or AdobeRGB+P3 displays that can change in seconds actual gamut with gamut emulation, so that display can behave like an sRGB display for example. You’ll need a display profile (generic or taylor made) for each mode/preset so that ICC profile describes ACTUAL behavior on that preset.

    2-If with “srgb” you actually meant “sRGB factory preset in my monitor” the answer is yes. You should have one profile for sRGB MONITOR preset and another one for native gamut. And I mean MONITOR  PRESET, not “DOCUMENT COLORSPACE”.
    I think that your misunderstanding comes from there. Once display is profile for a preset/OSD mode you can open whatever image you want in whatever colospace as long as you can actually render those colors in your display. For example set an AdoberGB+P3 display to full gamut, in color managed apps you can open sRGB images, P3-d65 images or AdobrRGB images whithout changing monitor OSD mode or display ICC profile.
    But you CANNOT use the same display profile if you change OSD preset in monitor HW.

    3- ICC profiles are just taylor made measurements of actual device response (but for display it can also store grey calibration).
    Taylor made measurements are used by apps to predict how display behaves in 16million combinations even if taylor made measuremenst are just 100 or 1000.
    In a well behaved display you can predict its behavior with a few patches, in not so well behaved displays you’ll need more to catch irregularities so you can predict those 16million combinations better.
    So first of all you’ll need to know if your taylor made display profile that you have created with Displaycal and “A” configuraction actually describes display response in an accurate way => “Does my display profile predicts how display is going to response upon an argitrary RGB input?” That’s what you validate.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Vincent.
    #25928

    Christopher
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    It sounds as if I have to re-adjust the colors and brightness of the display after having to adjust them for the calibration hardware.  In other words, the hardware calibration requires I adjust the RGB values to get an accurate calibration, but after this is accomplished I must fix by adjusting the RGB values for Windows once the ICC profile is saved and created.

    1- No. It is valid ONLY for the seetings it was made from. If you change OSD preset it becaomes invalid unless you go back to original preset & settings.
    Display profiles or printer profiles are just “taylor made” measurements. If you change the shape of your body a taylor made suit won’t fit. Same here.
    Right now we have P3 or AdobeRGB+P3 displays that can change in seconds actual gamut with gamut emulation, so that display can behave like an sRGB display for example. You’ll need a display profile (generic or taylor made) for each mode/preset so that ICC profile describes ACTUAL behavior on that preset.

    The profile which is set on ones monitor is tailor made for that monitor, other wise known as the factory setting.  Otherwise I need a display profile (ICC) for consistent results, is that what you’re saying ?

    What is native gamut, the displays default gamut or a gamut which I calibrated ?

    So first of all you’ll need to know if your taylor made display profile that you have created with Displaycal and “A” configuraction actually describes display response in an accurate way => “Does my display profile predicts how display is going to response upon an argitrary RGB input?” That’s what you validate.

    How do I find that out ?

    Also  this image is what DisplayCAL created for the display gamut, which shows the calibrated display gamut can only show a very limited set of colors compared to ACES.  I still don’t know how to find the deltaE for the display ?

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    #25931

    Vincent
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    It sounds as if I have to re-adjust the colors and brightness of the display after having to adjust them for the calibration hardware.  In other words, the hardware calibration requires I adjust the RGB values to get an accurate calibration, but after this is accomplished I must fix by adjusting the RGB values for Windows once the ICC profile is saved and created.

    Not at all, I have not said such things. I’ve said that each OST preset needs its own profile and that profile is only valid for the settings used to make them.

    If you are in custom/use color mode preset in your monitor, and you change RGB gians to gte certain white as instructed by Displaycal “profile’s valid settings” are THOSE ones, the ones you just set before running greyramp calibration iterations & profiling.

    1- No. It is valid ONLY for the seetings it was made from. If you change OSD preset it becaomes invalid unless you go back to original preset & settings.
    Display profiles or printer profiles are just “taylor made” measurements. If you change the shape of your body a taylor made suit won’t fit. Same here.
    Right now we have P3 or AdobeRGB+P3 displays that can change in seconds actual gamut with gamut emulation, so that display can behave like an sRGB display for example. You’ll need a display profile (generic or taylor made) for each mode/preset so that ICC profile describes ACTUAL behavior on that preset.

    The profile which is set on ones monitor is tailor made for that monitor, other wise known as the factory setting.  Otherwise I need a display profile (ICC) for consistent results, is that what you’re saying ?

    I dont think so, but I do nor really understand what you are saying with this.
    “Valid profiles” for factory settings  (=no user calibration) are:
    -driver/EDID profile with full native gamut, it usually gets installed with vendor “installer” or by OS (from EDID  data)
    -sRGB “standard” profile for “sRGB factory preset”
    -AdobeRGB “standard profile” for “AdobeRGB factory preset”…. etc

    If you run a user calibration on some OSD preset, whatever it is, the valid profile is that one you made, not others.
    Same holds for HW calibration available in some monitors, if you store an internal HW calibration in “slot1” the only profile valid for “slot 1” OSD mode if the one you made, not others.  If you change from “slot1” OSD mode to… let’s say “factory AdobeRGB” mode you HAVE TO change default display profile too from “slot1” to the one you use with AdobeRGB  mode.

    What is native gamut, the displays default gamut or a gamut which I calibrated ?

    Displays full gamut.

    So first of all you’ll need to know if your taylor made display profile that you have created with Displaycal and “A” configuraction actually describes display response in an accurate way => “Does my display profile predicts how display is going to response upon an argitrary RGB input?” That’s what you validate.

    How do I find that out ?

    Just verify your “taylormade” custom profile, last tab on the right in DisplayCAL, all checkboxes unchecked, run “measurement report”. It will measure current display behavior and calculate differences in dE00 to what profile predicts it will show.

    Also  this image is what DisplayCAL created for the display gamut, which shows the calibrated display gamut can only show a very limited set of colors compared to ACES.

    Expected, no monitor or fabric or printed paper will show them. Little use for that comparison.
    Choose one “content/document colorspace” like sRGB, AdobeRGB, eciRGB, P3-D65.. etc and then visual comparison will useful.

    I still don’t know how to find the deltaE for the display ?

    It does not exist as you name it, explained on my 1st message. Devices have no deltaE of its own, you need some target to mimic/compare to, also you’ll have to decide how to run that comparison : a) compare it “as is” b) compare it “under color management”.
    A “perfect” $5000 Eizo display will fail if you try to compare one of its full native gamut calibration vs sRGB “as is” because native gamut IS NOT sRGB, it’s bigger.
    Such “perfect” sample will perform superb is you validate how will perform showing sRGB colors in an sRGB image under a color managed editor (option “b)”)

    It’s explained in my 1st message.

    #25933

    Christopher
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    Not at all, I have not said such things. I’ve said that each OST preset needs its own profile and that profile is only valid for the settings used to make them.

    If you are in custom/use color mode preset in your monitor, and you change RGB gians to gte certain white as instructed by Displaycal “profile’s valid settings” are THOSE ones, the ones you just set before running greyramp calibration iterations & profiling.

    What do you mean by OST ?

    I don’t understand what you meant by your second part of your answer ?

    My Goal are the following;

    • Find the DeltaE value for the Display
    • Fix the colors which I had to adjust for DisplayCAL for calibration in Windows rather then what windows colors are now which is an over saturated and bright windows and dialog’s
    • Find the comparison of the display calibrated gamut to that of other gamuts (ACES, AdobeRGB etc)
    • Control which programs load the ICC profile, if not all programs are loading the profile

    I’m still reading though you other posts but hopefully this helps in helping me understand.

    #25935

    Vincent
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    Not at all, I have not said such things. I’ve said that each OST preset needs its own profile and that profile is only valid for the settings used to make them.

    If you are in custom/use color mode preset in your monitor, and you change RGB gians to gte certain white as instructed by Displaycal “profile’s valid settings” are THOSE ones, the ones you just set before running greyramp calibration iterations & profiling.

    What do you mean by OST ?

    I meant “OSD” (display menu when you press its buttons), it was a typo.

    I don’t understand what you meant by your second part of your answer ?

    My Goal are the following;

    • Find the DeltaE value for the Display
    • It does not exist as you name it, already explained
    • Fix the colors which I had to adjust for DisplayCAL for calibration in Windows rather then what windows colors are now which is an over saturated and bright windows and dialog’s
    • Windows desktop and non color managed apps cannot do that.. so you can’t
      (but color managed apps like Photoshop or GIMP will behave properly without any tricks because they are color managed.)

    … unless you have a monitor with HW calibration and configure it to simulate some “sRGB variant”
    or
    do some driver trick on AMD cards to emuate sRGB on the fly from display’s EDID native gamut data (they can do it but limited to EDID data accuracy to actual display response)

    • Find the comparison of the display calibrated gamut to that of other gamuts (ACES, AdobeRGB etc)
    • Makes no sense as you write it.  You may want to check if some OSD mode, calibrated by you or not, matches some colorspace that this specific OSD mode is trying to simulate… like “AdobeRGB factory preset” compared against “AdobeRGB colorspace” (already explained how to do it)… not against ACES or sRGB or something else. It is pointless to do it… they won’t match.
    • Control which programs load the ICC profile, if not all programs are loading the profile
    • Programs do not load profile, they ask OS for default one asociated for each display and ONLY if that app is color managed.
      Photoshop will ask for it. Windows Explorer, or games,  or Windows Photo won’t
      DisplayCAL tray app on windows “Loads” profile = sets it as display default in OS and loads grey calibration to graphics card so grey calibration is applied system wide.

    Maybe you’ll need first to learn basics of color management, then dive into this again…. or do not buy widegamut displays, just plain WLED sRGB displays.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Vincent.
    #25939

    Vincent
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    … unless you have a monitor with HW calibration and configure it to simulate some “sRGB variant”

    Forgot to mention it, but a “factory sRGB preset/calibration” can do the job too if it is accurate

    #25955

    Christopher
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    The iDisplay Pro can return the results of the DeltaE, DisplayCAL cannot return this result for the display ?

    What is HW calibration is I assume the profile is stored on the Display, if it should so have the hardware as the term goes, to retain the profile.  Therefore if the display HW calibration, how do you get it to simulate some sRGB variant ?

    Can you do the driver trick on NVIDIA cards as you can with AMD cards for gamut and EDID ?

    Makes no sense as you write it.  You may want to check if some OSD mode, calibrated by you or not, matches some colorspace that this specific OSD mode is trying to simulate… like “AdobeRGB factory preset” compared against “AdobeRGB colorspace” (already explained how to do it)… not against ACES or sRGB or something else. It is pointless to do it… they won’t match.

    The image I posted, showed a comparison between a display and ACES; I’ll create another example.

    #25957

    Vincent
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    The iDisplay Pro can return the results of the DeltaE, DisplayCAL cannot return this result for the display ?

    It does not. It returns color coordinates. Delta stands for “difference”, hence has no meaning for a single coordinate alone, a reference is needed and an i1displayPro does not calculate it. It can’t

    What is HW calibration is I assume the profile is stored on the Display, if it should so have the hardware as the term goes, to retain the profile.  Therefore if the display HW calibration, how do you get it to simulate some sRGB variant ?

    Not at all. Profile is just a description of how a device behaves.
    Display behavior (a profile) as a “file” is published to OS. Operative System shows it (taylor made meassurements describing display behavior) to all apps that asks for it so they can color manage between sevela “source” or “document” colorspaces, like a sRGB JPG being shown into that display. In this process there is not calibration at all, just profiles (aka colorspace descriptions).
    Some apps “crystalize” a transformation from A source colorspace to display colorspace in a table=> a LUT3D like the ones used in some software like madVR or Resolve, but it is equivalent to what I wrote about profiles.

    Optionally and in the scope of DisplayCAL, a display profile can cointain grey calibration to make display’s grey, and just grey, behave some way. Typical examples are getting your display to have some white point, grey neutral to white and certain “gamma”. Just it. No color coordinates of 255 red or green, just grey. Same applies to i1Profiler and other calibration packages that deal with GPU calibration.

    Optionally and out of scope of DisplayCAL functionlaity (because propietary drivers are usally needed) some displays can store grey calibration or full gamut colorspace emulation inside monitor. Those monitors are the ones labeled “with HW calibration”. It may be just grey (like in GPU calibration) or include some colorspace simulation too (like make a widgeamut display behave like if it was a sRGB display).
    So for these kind of monitors and using monitor vendor software for hardware calibration you can modify display to behave like a display with R, G and B coordinates equal to sRGB. With “variant” I meant it can have severak gammas like 2.2 or 2.4 for different tasks.
    DisplayCAL cannot upload that calibration to monitor (drivers) but can verify how it behaves (my 1st message)

    Can you do the driver trick on NVIDIA cards as you can with AMD cards for gamut and EDID ?

    AFAIK there is no such functionality on nvidia or intel GPUs, and to be useful EDID data should be accurate.

    Makes no sense as you write it.  You may want to check if some OSD mode, calibrated by you or not, matches some colorspace that this specific OSD mode is trying to simulate… like “AdobeRGB factory preset” compared against “AdobeRGB colorspace” (already explained how to do it)… not against ACES or sRGB or something else. It is pointless to do it… they won’t match.

    The image I posted, showed a comparison between a display and ACES; I’ll create another example.

    And it’s pointless. It can’t behave like ACES. It won’t no matter what you do. Compare it to something your display colospace can cover. Looks like “sRGB” will be a good sample to compare to in 1st place

    i1Display Pro on Amazon  
    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

    #25967

    Christopher
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    It does not. It returns color coordinates. Delta stands for “difference”, hence has no meaning for a single coordinate alone, a reference is needed and an i1displayPro does not calculate it. It can’t

    The color coordinates is the difference other wise known as DeltaE, correct; and where can I find those coordinates ?

    #25975

    Vincent
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    It does not. It returns color coordinates. Delta stands for “difference”, hence has no meaning for a single coordinate alone, a reference is needed and an i1displayPro does not calculate it. It can’t

    The color coordinates is the difference other wise known as DeltaE, correct; and where can I find those coordinates ?

    No, color coordinates are just coordinates like in a map.

    DeltaE are distances, like saying how many miles are between point A (with some coordinates) and point B (with other coordinates) .
    That’s why you need a set of coordinates (display measurements) and ANOTHER set of coordinates (reference) to calculate distances (deltas).
    Display has no deltas, it has deltas compared to something else.

    On my 1st message you can see the types of references that DisplayCAL can use for calculating distances.

    #25988

    Christopher
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    -Delta E of display against the predicted behaviour of a custom profile (keep that relation in mind) can be checked with a  measurement report on last tab or tools menu. => Does my profile predict display behavior?

    What do you mean; Does my profile predict display behavior ?

    -Delta E of HW calibration, factory calibration preset or displaycal GPU-uncalibrated display response against an arbitrary colorspace can be don in the same way ticking use simulation profile as display profile. => Does my HW calibration or factory calibration matches some target colorspace? => You cannot use it to test GPU calibration because GPU calibration will be cleaned duriong verification.

    I couldn’t find the settings you mention in DisplayCAL ?

    -Delta E of display with some display profile attached on OS predicting its behavior when showing an image in an arbitrary colorspace  in a color managed image editing applitation of supposed not limited precission can be done in the same way choosing a simulation profile (image’s colospace) but DO NOT choosing it as display profile. => Does my display with THAT display profile associated to it shows accuarte colors in Photoshop showing an image with an ambeded profile of “X” colospace?

    I don’t follow ?

    No, color coordinates are just coordinates like in a map.

    DeltaE are distances, like saying how many miles are between point A (with some coordinates) and point B (with other coordinates) .
    That’s why you need a set of coordinates (display measurements) and ANOTHER set of coordinates (reference) to calculate distances (deltas).
    Display has no deltas, it has deltas compared to something else.

    I understand.

    #25992

    Vincent
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    -Delta E of display against the predicted behaviour of a custom profile (keep that relation in mind) can be checked with a  measurement report on last tab or tools menu. => Does my profile predict display behavior?

    What do you mean; Does my profile predict display behavior ?

    Display profiles (ALL of them) store monitor behaviour. Like… If i send RGB 200,40,50 what color coordinates will actually output my screen?, and the opposite, which RGB values do I need to output to get certain color coordinates?.

    If you validate display profile against display itself you are actually checking if profile actullay predicts how display will behave. This is what matters for color managed apps.

    Profile predicts that if you outpout RGB 200, 40, 50 you get X1, Y1, Z1 coolor coordinates.
    Send RGB 200, 40, 50 to screen, measure color, get X2, Y2, Z2.
    Then calculate “Human vision distance” (deltaEs) between coordinate 1 and coordinate 2. This answers the question you ask for.

    -Delta E of HW calibration, factory calibration preset or displaycal GPU-uncalibrated display response against an arbitrary colorspace can be don in the same way ticking use simulation profile as display profile. => Does my HW calibration or factory calibration matches some target colorspace? => You cannot use it to test GPU calibration because GPU calibration will be cleaned duriong verification.

    I couldn’t find the settings you mention in DisplayCAL ?

    Last tab on the right, verification

    -Delta E of display with some display profile attached on OS predicting its behavior when showing an image in an arbitrary colorspace  in a color managed image editing applitation of supposed not limited precission can be done in the same way choosing a simulation profile (image’s colospace) but DO NOT choosing it as display profile. => Does my display with THAT display profile associated to it shows accuarte colors in Photoshop showing an image with an ambeded profile of “X” colospace?

    I don’t follow ?

    Same as my fist quote

    No, color coordinates are just coordinates like in a map.

    DeltaE are distances, like saying how many miles are between point A (with some coordinates) and point B (with other coordinates) .
    That’s why you need a set of coordinates (display measurements) and ANOTHER set of coordinates (reference) to calculate distances (deltas).
    Display has no deltas, it has deltas compared to something else.

    I understand.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Vincent.
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