Some odd results on my PA329C with i1Display Pro

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  • #27875

    Darkmatter
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    I need some help interpreting this info.

    Some of it, is somewhat mind boggling to me.

    First, I did a display uniformity test without using any of Asus’s hardware calibration software, just to see the defaults.

    The numbers look pretty bad at some of the edges/corners, but Asus does have screen uniformity built into their calibration software. Unfortunately you can’t use it without also calibrating with their software too.

    One of my problems with that is reports, using their software, like this…

    I did call X-Rite, and they said that it was very unlikely a problem with the calibrator.

    With that angle at least looked at, I tried an Asus uniformity adjusted calibration. It crashed near the end of the uniformity part, which comes before the calibration part, and this is what I ended up with.

    Asus claims that this panel only has 16 brightness zones. Also, I’ve seen those zones turning on and off once when I had a problem with my last PA329C. They’re arranged as 8 at the top and 8 at the bottom, going horizontally with the mid point being in the middle of the display, horizontally. But how does that explain this? At first I thought it was because it was a hardware calibration, that it was simply a change in colour DE where it crashed, but I checked by doing another report using DisplayCal, for display uniformity with this “artifact” up. I did the first with the sensor only seeing the calibrated parts at the bottom, and then another with the sensor on the brighter spots. The results were an actual increase in brightness in the brighter areas.

    As you can see in the last screenshot, the cd/m2 values have changed. Does this mean that this panel actually has more zones then advertised? It doesn’t utilize them with dynamic dimming, which I have turned off BTW, so I don’t know what to make of the high DE values with their software’s calibration, or the change in brightness when their software crashed.

    Can anyone shed some light on this for me? BTW I have contacted Asus. I haven’t heard back yet.

    Thanks,

    DM

    #27893

    Vincent
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    I need some help interpreting this info.

    Some of it, is somewhat mind boggling to me.

    First, I did a display uniformity test without using any of Asus’s hardware calibration software, just to see the defaults.

    The numbers look pretty bad at some of the edges/corners, but Asus does have screen uniformity built into their calibration software. Unfortunately you can’t use it without also calibrating with their software too.

    -Check color errors (change combo in central cell). dE are colro + brightness errors. What usually bothers people are greenish or pinkish tints => dC.

    -AFAIK from online reviews Asus UC does not works at all, hence it is useless. It fixes brightness but dC may go even worse (prad.de)

    One of my problems with that is reports, using their software, like this…

    I did call X-Rite, and they said that it was very unlikely a problem with the calibrator.

    Since grey (using their measurement… which may not be real) is +- OK, and errors are placen on primaries… just check to which target it is making a comparison and what are the actual gamut boundaries after calibration with Asus software.

    If there are no HDMI range issues and since blu is in place, looks like you have a native gamut calibration or something like that. Just measure primaries & secondaries and plot them if you cannot place visually just by seeing xy numbers. HFCR or whatever tool you want for that. Make sure to use proper colorimeter correction

    For example that red, whatever it is actual measured value or “target value”, is like sRGB red and green is like AdobeRGB green. Are they target or actual measured values? It says measured. Check target then. Same thing double checking measured values.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    #27900

    Darkmatter
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    Hey Vincent. The Asus software doesn’t tell you anything other then what you see there. :/

    The profile was set in the Asus hardware calibration software to AdobeRGB 1998, 6500K, and gamma 2.2

    Oh, I’m using the DisplayPort on my graphics card. A Nvidia 1070. The DisplayPort cable is the one that came with the monitor. I would THINK they would use a good one for a ProArt monitor. ><

    BTW, when I do an Asus calibration, or use their factory defaults, which are supposed to be within 2DE, if I then use DisplayCal to do just a verification, the numbers are way off. Someone at X-Rite said I would need to know the observer angle of the calibrator Asus uses in these monitors when calibrating. Any idea what that would be and how I would set that for a verification report?

    The thing is, the hardware calibration using the i1Display Pro (which is the recommended calibrator by Asus) with Asus software wouldn’t need a display correction because it’s a chip in the monitor, so wouldn’t the final output colour be correct if I’m using the same calibrator?

    As for the sRGB red and the AdobeRGB blue, I have no idea. This monitor is advertised as doing 100% sRGB, 100% AdobeRGB 1998, and DCI-P3 of 98%.

    When I use DisplayCal I’ve been using a correction I pulled off of the uploaded ones. It says,

    “Spectral: Unknown (ASUSTek COMPUTER INC PA329C (i1Pro))”

    Normally I would think these were from customers, but with them using ‘ASUSTek etc’ I wondered if it was from Asus. If you have a different correction that I should use, please let me know.

    Thanks for your help.

    DM

    i1Display Pro on Amazon   i1Basic Pro 2 on Amazon  
    Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

    #27901

    Vincent
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    BTW, when I do an Asus calibration, or use their factory defaults, which are supposed to be within 2DE, if I then use DisplayCal to do just a verification, the numbers are way off. Someone at X-Rite said I would need to know the observer angle of the calibrator Asus uses in these monitors when calibrating. Any idea what that would be and how I would set that for a verification report?

    2 degree. No reason to use other. Also white won’t be on spot. It is not caused by that.

    The thing is, the hardware calibration using the i1Display Pro (which is the recommended calibrator by Asus) with Asus software wouldn’t need a display correction because it’s a chip in the monitor, so wouldn’t the final output colour be correct if I’m using the same calibrator?

    No. i1d3 outputs raw uncorrected “RGB” data. Software needs to apply a matrix always to translate to CIE XYZ, even with no CCSS correction.

    Asus software HAS NOT AND NEVER HAD a proper correction for a WLED PFS (AdobeRGB+P3 flavor) like PA329C, hence it cannot measure that display with the accuracy i1d3 can offer.

    v1.14

    OLEDFamily_20Jul12.edr => NO, it is not RGB OLED
    RG_Phosphor_Family_25Jul12.edr => No, it is not a GB-LED
    RGBLEDFamily_07Feb11.edr => No it is not a old and discontinued HP L2480zx. Same issue as Benqs

    Although on a i1d3 that is extremely closely to CIE 2degree std observer in red using a RGBLED correction may result in lower than 3dE vs actual corrected readings… but that randomness with readings (one colorimeter ok, other not) is the very reason Xrite uses spectral corrections, to avoid that.

    Also, again, main error will be on white point (greenish, pinkish) no so big deal with RGB primaries.

    As for the sRGB red and the AdobeRGB blue, I have no idea. This monitor is advertised as doing 100% sRGB, 100% AdobeRGB 1998, and DCI-P3 of 98%.

    When I use DisplayCal I’ve been using a correction I pulled off of the uploaded ones. It says,

    “Spectral: Unknown (ASUSTek COMPUTER INC PA329C (i1Pro))”

    Normally I would think these were from customers, but with them using ‘ASUSTek etc’ I wondered if it was from Asus. If you have a different correction that I should use, please let me know.

    Use HP Z24x G2 WLED PFS 1mm. It’s an WLED PFS AdobeRGB+P3 flavor, like Eizo CGs… but waaaaay lower QC.

    -Validate against “supposed calibration” target in DisplayCAL (simulationprofile = target, use simulation as display profile). Share.
    -Validate against “resulting profile” from Asus Software in DisplayCAL (no simulation, just validate profile). Share.
    Those (DIsplayCAL’s + i1d3 + HP Z24x) are the valid results and the valid report for your screen. You can use the new EDR added to Asus software in 2020, RGB-LED (it may vary whitepoint, primaries will be +- on the same place) so you use the same of (wrong) rules as Asus software. I meant if asus software measured properly (it does not for “all i1d3”, it is not a GBELED, it is not a RGBLED), does it calibrate well? = does it compute the proper calibration so resulting calibration matches target?

    Also you choose the wrong one. 10nm on WLED PFS, all red channel spectral info errased, so it willl be difficult to correct properly your i1d3 if it is different from cie observer on those red wavelengths. Munki ccss is 3nm. Not great but the best Xrite tools can offer. Use HP Z24x correction bundled with displaycal.
    Also it’s funny how 10nm->3nm varies blue of these xrite spectros… even on GB-LEDs (which are mostly the same as yours or WLED sRGB in blue channel).

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    #27903

    Vincent
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    Data from:

    2020/09/01 4.75 MBytes
    ASUS ProArt Calibration Software v1.14.06

    Latest one in PA329C support web. Downloaded right now & installed.

    You jumped in the wrong boat going to Asus (or Dell or Benq or LG). Widegamut AdobeRGB+P3 => Eizo CGs. Maybe NEC but NEC calibration software lacks of proper EDR too, it uses a GB-LED for correction their newer modesl WLED PFS like yours, same potential issue on WP, minor if none on red primary or emulated red.
    If they are too expensive, go to 27″ UHD or QHD (not NEC, seems to have been issues with their latest model WLED PFS, google).

    They just work. as intended

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    #27906

    Darkmatter
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    Ya I wouldn’t buy this thing unless they paid me more than it’s worth to take it, but I actually didn’t start out with this monitor. I started out with a PG279(Something) and it had problems under warranty and since I do photography, they let me switch to a PA329Q for a couple of hundred. Those I had problems with, and so they sent me a PA329C.

    And THAT is the very long story of how I am now using a PA329C… lol

    #27907

    Vincent
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    Use HP Z24x G2 WLED PFS 1mm. It’s an WLED PFS AdobeRGB+P3 flavor, like Eizo CGs… but waaaaay lower QC.

    -Validate against “supposed calibration” target in DisplayCAL (simulationprofile = target, use simulation as display profile). Share.
    -Validate against “resulting profile” from Asus Software in DisplayCAL (no simulation, just validate profile). Share.
    Those (DisplayCAL’s + i1d3 + HP Z24x) are the valid results and the valid report for your screen. You can use the new EDR added to Asus software in 2020, RGB-LED (it may vary whitepoint, primaries will be +- on the same place) so you use the same of (wrong) rules as Asus software.

    Do this to check your display behavior in its current calibration configuration. It does not matter what Asus software says.

    #27938

    Darkmatter
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    [Edit] Sorry for the text formatting. It looked (on my browser) that one of the posts broke the formatting for the text and it ran off screen with no way to scroll.

    Hi Vincent

    Are you saying to do a verification in DCal at Asus’s AdobeRGB 1998 factory calibrated preset

    (at default) or are you asking me to do the same in Asus’s software?

    I ask for a couple reasons.

    1. In DCal, I can’t use the icm that came with the monitor because DCal doesn’t recognize it

    because it has no settings. The simulation profile option is completely greyed out.

    2. The software you linked is actually their old software. They now have a “Creators Hub”

    software that is at least, better, than the old one. I have that one up to date, and I do have the

    2020 old calibration software, but it hangs near the start and I have reinstalled it and

    uninstalled all other calibration software including ArgyllCMS with no change.

    The Hub software works, but you can’t do just a verification report, you have to do a calibration,

    and because it’s hardware, I have no idea how the software messes with the RGB numbers

    as you can’t see it in the monitors OSD as that area is greyed out. 🙁 There also isn’t an “as

    measured” option.

    About the best I could do with Asus’s current software, is to measure using DCal to see what the

    “as measured” nits, gamma, and white point read as (using the correction you mentioned) and

    then use those numbers to set the brightness and kelvin to the same in Asus’s software.

    Would you like me to do that?

    BTW, this is a DCal verification report of Asus’s AdobeRGB 1998 mode at default, but no

    simulation profile. One of the big takeaways as to why DCal may be saying it’s all kinds of wrong

    is because Asus has their default Adobe setting set to a brightness of about 320… Yes, I know,

    AdobeRGB is suppose to be 160……….

    I wonder if Ezio would let me trade in my PA329C for an Ezio equivalent…..? 😉

    DM

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Darkmatter.
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    #27943

    Vincent
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    [Edit] Sorry for the text formatting. It looked (on my browser) that one of the posts broke the formatting for the text and it ran off screen with no way to scroll.

    Hi Vincent

    Are you saying to do a verification in DCal at Asus’s AdobeRGB 1998 factory calibrated preset

    (at default) or are you asking me to do the same in Asus’s software?

    If you used Asus soft to HW calibrate to AdobeRGB… validate in displaycal to that target.

    I ask for a couple reasons.

    1. In DCal, I can’t use the icm that came with the monitor because DCal doesn’t recognize it

    because it has no settings. The simulation profile option is completely greyed out.

    You should not use driver ICM as OS default profile, you should use resulting ICC from Asus soft as default display profile.

    If asus icc is not recognized make a syntheic one with same coordinates.

    2. The software you linked is actually their old software. They now have a “Creators Hub”

    software that is at least, better, than the old one. I have that one up to date, and I do have the

    Calman derived work? it may be even worse. Since you have no i1d3 “C6” just pro or oem or pro plus, look fro EDR in setup folder. As I said it may be as bad as previous.

    2020 old calibration software, but it hangs near the start and I have reinstalled it and

    uninstalled all other calibration software including ArgyllCMS with no change.

    The Hub software works, but you can’t do just a verification report, you have to do a calibration,

    and because it’s hardware, I have no idea how the software messes with the RGB numbers

    as you can’t see it in the monitors OSD as that area is greyed out. 🙁 There also isn’t an “as

    measured” option.

    As I said, ignore their reports. Validate results with DisplayCAL. Same fro Dells, Benqs… etc.

    About the best I could do with Asus’s current software, is to measure using DCal to see what the

    “as measured” nits, gamma, and white point read as (using the correction you mentioned) and

    then use those numbers to set the brightness and kelvin to the same in Asus’s software.

    Would you like me to do that?

    A “profile only” with no GPU calibration? Thta wil give you an accurate description of after calibration results. It will be useful to color managed apps… but it’s easier to validate asus resulting icc after calibration. If that “hub” generates no ICC then I would say that create a “profile only” (no calibration, all set to native in calibration tab) in displaycal with at least matrix+1curve +BPC (minimum) should be mandatory. If calibration results are good that minum setuo will be the best for typical color managed apps.

    BTW, this is a DCal verification report of Asus’s AdobeRGB 1998 mode at default, but no

    simulation profile. One of the big takeaways as to why DCal may be saying it’s all kinds of wrong

    is because Asus has their default Adobe setting set to a brightness of about 320… Yes, I know,

    AdobeRGB is suppose to be 160……….

    I wonder if Ezio would let me trade in my PA329C for an Ezio equivalent…..? 😉

    DM

    Displaycal does not care about display brightness. XYZ normalized.

    If it reports  wrong it is beacuse display does not match what you are trying to set as reference. That means wrong reference or wrong calibration or both.
    Out of daylight locus white means wrong calibration (unless you aimed to paper wite or specific white) or different colorimeter correction (usually WRONG) in vendor software, bad a*b* grey range means wrong calibration (no excuses).

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Vincent.
    #27948

    Darkmatter
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    Thanks I’ll try that, and look for an EDR folder as soon as I Google where this Hub software is located. It’s only available on the MS Store….

    Also, it doesn’t make an icc since it calibrates the monitor directly. I’d use the most recent (or 2nd last release) of their older software, but as I said, it hangs for some reason.

    BTW, I have a retail i1Display Pro. I just got it about a week or 2 ago.

    I asked Asus a bunch of questions and they will get back to me, but for now, for this “Hub” software, should I use the icm that came with the drivers for this exact monitor when I use Asus’s hardware calibration software? I only ask because I would assume that their software would be set to use their icm. Another option is MS’s AdobeRGB 1998 icm,  as that’s the colour space I’m going for.

    Oh, and I calibrate to D65, which is the default according to the software, the monitor OSD, etc, even though I usually get a Kelvin of about 7200K, which could be due to other factors.

    My only other option would be to see what Windows 10 would do if I removed every profile from the folder that has all the default Windows profiles. I’m not sure if Windows 10 would just re-add them, or if it would pick no icm profile.

    I’m going to attach the default PA329C’s icm. I have no idea if there’s a way to see what’s actually inside an icm or not.

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    #27950

    Vincent
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    Thanks I’ll try that, and look for an EDR folder as soon as I Google where this Hub software is located. It’s only available on the MS Store….

    Run it, in task manager, Detatils you should be able to identify it and check path,

    Also, it doesn’t make an icc since it calibrates the monitor directly.

    No. It does not make ICC because it is a useless piece of sofware. Dell HW cal software, Benq, Eizo, NEC… etc, make ICC at the end of HW cal.

    I asked Asus a bunch of questions and they will get back to me, but for now, for this “Hub” software, should I use the icm that came with the drivers for this exact monitor when I use Asus’s hardware calibration software? I only ask because I would assume that their software would be set to use their icm. Another option is MS’s AdobeRGB 1998 icm,  as that’s the colour space I’m going for.

    No. If no ICC is made :
    -option 1) use (or create synthetic with DisplayCAL synth profile) colorspace target as display ICC
    -option2 ) the best, make a “profile only” in DisplayCAL. Start with the simpler ones matrix 1 curve BPC.

    I’m going to attach the default PA329C’s icm. I have no idea if there’s a way to see what’s actually inside an icm or not.

    http://www.color.org/profileinspector.xalter

    But users may be confused with white defined as PCS white (D50)

    or DisplayCAL profile info.exe + path to icc in command line

    #27951

    Darkmatter
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    Thanks Vincent. I know this has been a slog… :/

    I made a synthetic profile using the data that DCal gave me in a verification report, but what profile should I use when doing the initial verification report to find out the default white point, etc, before I make the synthetic profile? Just the default gamma 2.2?

    Also, are you saying that the other monitor brands hardware calibration saves the calibration on the monitor in a chip AND gives you an icm? Asus stores the data (from their software) on a chip in the monitor. I’m assuming the other companies do the same since you said “hardware calibration, but just wanted to check.

    Thanks

    #27952

    Darkmatter
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    Edit: Sorry, I missed the (Best) part of the 2nd option for a profile. I’ll do that tomorrow. Windows 10 has decided the monitor is now 8bit, so I’d need to reboot, but I’m doing a very long duplicate file finder search.

    #27953

    Vincent
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    Thanks Vincent. I know this has been a slog… :/

    I made a synthetic profile using the data that DCal gave me in a verification report, but what profile should I use when doing the initial verification report to find out the default white point, etc, before I make the synthetic profile? Just the default gamma 2.2?

    If you choose to make a synth profile, R,G,B&W coordinates and gamma/TRC shoudl be whatever you put un Asus sofware as calibration target.
    For example Rec709 primaries, D65 white and 2.4 gamma in asus => to synth.
    THis is equal to say “I believe that calibration was perfect”, then you validate against display profile, default displaycal validation (no simulation profile) nad check if this is true or not.

    Also, are you saying that the other monitor brands hardware calibration saves the calibration on the monitor in a chip AND gives you an icm? Asus stores the data (from their software) on a chip in the monitor. I’m assuming the other companies do the same since you said “hardware calibration, but just wanted to check.

    Yes, otherwise those calibrations will be useless for tools like Photoshop or other ICC color managed software.
    1- They measure uncalibrated bahevior
    2-Compute calibration to desired calibration target
    3-Write internal monitor LUTs (upload calibration to monitor)
    4-Measure after calibration status and make ICC profile with that.

    The same DisplayCAL does or i1Profiler or Datacolor, but calibration data is uploaded to monitor instead of loaded into GPU LUT. And of course some LUTs in monitor can do gamut simulation (sRGB, AdoberGB, smaller than native colorspaces) while GPU LUT 1D only can calibrate greys.

    The kind of calibration Asus software does (from your posts) is only useful for non color managed video (they assume display equals content) or gaming… or maybe general purpose display (sRGB). But if I wanted that I will buy a sRGB display… not a widegamut.

    #27954

    Darkmatter
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    Nice…

    BTW I did decide to do a profile only with 1 curve + matrix, which was one of the ones near the bottom of the drop down menu. I did it before I read your last post.

    After I profiled it, I used it as the display profile and did a verification. The big issue is the Kelvin. The only colours that were really off were the very dark patches that you probably wouldn’t see a difference anyways.

    About Asus’s calibration software and hardware chip, would I even need a Photoshop correction if the monitor (being the last piece of the pipeline) makes all the corrections? Actually, I just realized that I have no idea if it’s a 1DLUT or a 3DLUT that it makes, and either way, without an associating icm to attach to a file, how the heck do I make sure it prints correctly at the place I get my work printed at!? The only thing I can think to do is calibrate it to exactly AdobeRGB 1998 and include that file in the photo.

    I am SO glad that this was a trade in and not a monitor I bought at retail. ><

    Edit: I really do appreciate all of this Vincent! You’re doing an amazing job of helping people here.

    DM

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Darkmatter. Reason: Giving props, where props are due
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