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Hi everyone!
I have a WCG monitor, and I get oversaturated colors in Windows UI (and non-color managed programs).
At the same time, I like that my monitor can show a wider range of colors in movies/games.
So, I devised (at least, theoretically) the following solution:
- Calibrate the monitor and create an ICC profile for color-aware environments
- Generate an sRGB 3DLUT and use it with non color-aware programs and Windows UI
- Be able to switch on/off 3DLUT from the previous point
So, there are 2 questions:
- Is this solution implementable at all? What would be the interplay between the ICC profile and 3DLUT in this case?
- If yes, how do I go about making it a reality? (Imagine I have a colorimeter and DisplayCAL installed on my machine.)
Generate an sRGB 3DLUT and use it with non color-aware programs and Windows UI
Be able to switch on/off 3DLUT from the previous pointOptions:
- AMD driver. It will read EDID primaries and assuming that monitor + VCGT is 2,2 or sRGB TRC it will transform everything to sRGB. Disable to return to full gamut. Google it. It’s LUT-matrix-lut srGB emulation.
- Nvidia + novideo_sRGB. Same as above but more customizable. It can use EDID or ICC profile to describe native gamut bahavior
- DWMLUT, all GPUs, true LUT3D. Some online games may refuse it because it can be used to cheat. I have not used it for that so IDNK, just remeber to read it somwhere here,
I think you can tame your problems with the wide color gamut with no video srgb or dwm lut . DWM lut uses video card shaders but no video srgb is just set it and no video srgb does nothing but let the nvidia driver do its things. You do not have to load no video srgb on start or at all once set. no performance hit. https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/ra35t5/novideo_srgb_srgb_clamp_tool_for_nvdia_gpus_ie_no/ . I let no video srgb read the monitors data and clamps it to srgb. It really fixed blue and I had to change change the saturation a little in the cms on vizo v5-555-j01 tv. It get the best delta e color in under 75% brightgness but with it disabled 100% is less delta e in red and magenta. Red is total out of red color in srg clamped. Even lowering contrast does not help it. It does use 16 bit true lut 0 to 65536 and my tv just do not accept this. It accepts 655280 and no red out of color in it its native so red is not crushed at all. It is slighltly out of gamut but not worse to no vid srgb by delta e 2000 measurment. Blue is worse in native and is just perfect at all brightness in no video srgb.
The latest fork of dwm lut is at https://github.com/lauralex/dwm_lut . I have not used this. It lot to use dwm lut compared to no vid srgb.
I think you can tame your problems with the wide color gamut with no video srgb or dwm lut .
Options:
Vincent, Ben, thank you for your suggestions. I have an AMD card, so I think AMD driver level solution and DWM are my options. From what I understood, the former would be a more native, straightforward and simple solution without a performance hit.
That being said, it has a drawback: For it to work I’ll have to delete all ICC profiles associated with the display in use, otherwise I will get double correction in a color-aware environment (as indicated in this PCMonitors article). Adding and deleting an ICC profile all the time doesn’t look like a practical solution.
However, in the comment section of this Reddit post someone called BloodandSpit claims that DisplayCAL can enforces ICC profile across the system (here, for example), and as I understand him, in the non color-aware environment as well. Did I understand him correctly? It seems like it could be a great solution if I could get the system to treat all non-color-aware stuff as sRBG and apply the ICC profile to it accordingly.
Well you can not just use a 3d lut profile and use the same profile since it will cause double correction. You can turn off the clamp in AMD drivers. I do not know what AMD driver does. If you want 1 ICC profile which is it? Seems you need 2 since WCG and REC 709 is in range of your monitor. It is a pain switching drivers to not clamp and have the WCG profile for color aware apps. No video srgb is more complex than AMD driver and could use the WCG profile. And only switch srgb on and off. I would think AMD driver might do the same. All can do is measure and try.
That being said, it has a drawback: For it to work I’ll have to delete all ICC profiles associated with the display in use, otherwise I will get double correction in a color-aware environment (as indicated in this PCMonitors article). Adding and deleting an ICC profile all the time doesn’t look like a practical solution.
That is false. Multiple profiles can coexist for the same monitor, but only one can be the default profile (the one used by color managed apps, requested to OS on app startup).
So use DisplayCAL tray icon for fast switching between default profile. You’ll need more mouse clicks to get to AMD control panel and enable/disable Custom color than to switch profiles with Displaycal tray app
You do not need to delete profiles to have the right one default. Your settings could be per user too and have to relog in to use a different color space.
Really tough info on Windows ACM. If you profile was worked to MHC2 it might work automaticaly. Will it work on Windows 10 ? Google a program to convert ICC to MHC2 there is one in github. I was looking for a calibrator program for that to save a step. I did see a paid one before. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-color-management/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/wcs/display-calibration-mhc
Link was updated 8-28-2024 so could be new information.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-color-management/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/wcs/display-calibration-mhc
Thanks for the links, I’ll explore further.
That is false. Multiple profiles can coexist for the same monitor, but only one can be the default profile (the one used by color managed apps, requested to OS on app startup).
So use DisplayCAL tray icon for fast switching between default profile. You’ll need more mouse clicks to get to AMD control panel and enable/disable Custom color than to switch profiles with Displaycal tray app
To be honest, I am not sure what the interplay between several profiles, be they default or not, is. This is my first serious venture into color management (before I would just pick the most sensibly looking preset in my monitor’s OSD, which would almost always be “Standard”). From what I learned, one ICC profile includes information about conversion between different color spaces (for example, it can include several 3DLUTs). So on the surface it seems that I can have one profile, and the only problem I have it how to force it to be applied to non-color-managed stuff (presume it’s sRGB, whilst color-managed stuff would be okay, since the profile would have information about all color spaces that I need). But Ben seems to indicate that it’s not that simple. And Windows itself seems not able to do that. I wonder if DisplayCAL is different in this regard.
Its a new thing the ACM. Windows natively uses the video drivers to do color without doing a color conversion based on the app type and it do not use ACM. Its getting to be auto color managed like a Mac. Without ACM you have to control the display so it takes mouse clicks. Video driver settings or a OSD menu and changeing the ICC to the one calibrated in the OSD setting of SRGB color space. For non SRGB apps it would be different video driver settings and a different ICC used calibrated with those setting. Thats why I would choose a rec 709 color space and use that as default since most windows is rec 709. It is complicated and I like it simple. Wide gamut color is for Dolby Vision or REC 2020 ultra hd movies. HD can be rec 709 and HD is enough pixels to see a good picture from not to far away. 4K and Rec 2020 is for professionals creating content. Watching it calibrated is nice but takes work. Windows does do HDR and 4k using the monitors setting in hardware and the default profile. The profile has to be right for the display gamut mode.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/auto-color-management/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/wcs/display-calibration-mhc
Thanks for the links, I’ll explore further.
That is false. Multiple profiles can coexist for the same monitor, but only one can be the default profile (the one used by color managed apps, requested to OS on app startup).
So use DisplayCAL tray icon for fast switching between default profile. You’ll need more mouse clicks to get to AMD control panel and enable/disable Custom color than to switch profiles with Displaycal tray app
To be honest, I am not sure what the interplay between several profiles, be they default or not, is. This is my first serious venture into color management (before I would just pick the most sensibly looking preset in my monitor’s OSD, which would almost always be “Standard”). From what I learned, one ICC profile includes information about conversion between different color spaces (for example, it can include several 3DLUTs).
NO, a profile just describes how a display (or any other device) behaves. That’s all. Conversion to other colorspace is up to color management engine in app, or os or whatever.
So it does not include any LUT3D, you compute them explicitly (if you need them) as a crystalized transform between 2 colorspsces.So on the surface it seems that I can have one profile, and the only problem I have it how to force it to be applied to non-color-managed stuff (presume it’s sRGB, whilst color-managed stuff would be okay, since the profile would have information about all color spaces that I need). But Ben seems to indicate that it’s not that simple. And Windows itself seems not able to do that. I wonder if DisplayCAL is different in this regard.
It’s simple and it has been explained how to do it. Just remember to publish in os the new simulated behavior when you enable it (default display profile = simulated colorspace).
