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This display shows 90% of DCI-P3, while you use wrong correction for near-sRGB panels. Here I attach .ti3 measurement file for BenQ PD2705Q that has similar gamut, select it in correction building window, also set near 160cdm lightness and build a personal correction for your display/colorimeter. Your test shows that all is OK, but significantly wrong gamut may result in wrong color lightness and saturation. Also check Photoshop defaults for image profiles, check for sRGB profile in test image (left bottom corner in Ps, switch from size to profile). I don’t think that there are signal limitation problems (16-235 for TVs instead of 0-255), but also check it in driver settings. Use DP connection with nVidia cards.
Here is the panel for my monitor: https://www.panelook.com/M280DCA-E7B_Innolux_28.0_LCM_parameter_45661.html
It just says “WLED” so I chose the “LCD White LED” Correction in DisplayCal. Do you know if there is a more appropriate one?
My test images don’t have color profiles embedded, which in my understanding should mean Photoshop treats it as sRGB by default, right?
WLED = common TN/VA/IPS LED display with sRGB colorspace or close to that. Huge blu led spike + yellow phosphor
widegamut display have other Spectral Power Distribution like “WLED PFS” (which is not WLED) used in 9x% P3 multimedia displays.
There is a community CCSS correction database: colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net (do not use CCMX)If you cannot find by review or spec the same of that display SPD you’ll neeed a spectrophotometer in addition to your colorimeter.
Most photo or multimedia displays have well known SPD so we can use the generic CCSS or community CCSS, but once you go into the wild with less known displays an spectrophotometer may be needed too.Anyway, just show profile info, go to gamut. If it has near P3 red and close to P3 green you may try WLED PFS 94%.
If it is “close” to sRGB boundaries (may be a little bit more) stay with WLED.BTW: If you truly aim to create content for non color managed aps like games to be played in displays with sRGB primaries and 2.2 gamma, encode content that way (that content is not sRGB). That way Photoshop and an ideal diaplay behaving that way will show the same.
I’m sorry but I’m really having trouble following. I’ve re-read what you’ve written many times but I barely understand half of it.
Remote (non color managed browser)
Plugged to your computer (using whatever profile you want, EDID or driver icc for that monitor seem a good choice, it “should” behave that way)
with HCFRI have no idea what you are describing here, but I’m also not sure if it’s something I need to worry about?
Example WLED 99% sRGB display (it is a little bigger than sRGB, intersection gives 99):
Calibrate to 2.2, simple matrix profille 1 curve, BPC active. Let’s assume that resulting profile describes calibrated display with reasonable accuracy
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile will show brither dark greys in Photoshop than in MS paint, as intended
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile using “Monitor RGB” will show a little oversaturated primaries because typically they are beyond sRGB (although close, see a gamut plot of your display profile) and darker greys than in sRGB.
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile using softproof + prevserve RGB numbers on a synthetic Rec709/sRGB profile with 2.2g will show how things will render non color managed on an ideal display with exactly sRGB gamut and 2.2 gamma.Do you mean simply selecting sRGB as the “Device to simulate” in the Proof settings? This shows no difference in the image.
If you truly aim to create content for non color managed aps like games to be played in displays with sRGB primaries and 2.2 gamma, encode content that way (that content is not sRGB). That way Photoshop and an ideal diaplay behaving that way will show the same.
What do you mean by “encode”? How do I encode it? What is “encode content that way”?
no. Embeding may be assigning or converting. beware. choose what you really want to do.
No profile but you belive that content is X = assign
reencode to show same color in colorspace X = convertI assume you are talking about “Convert to Profile” in Photoshop – but between which colorspaces am I supposed to convert?
Currently the image has no profile, which I believe means it is interpreted as sRGB by default? At least converting to sRGB makes no difference.
You keep saying Monitor RGB is “wrong” and “not accurate”, but as far as I can tell, that’s the closest I get to seeing how other people will view my art in the game, while I’m creating the art. Is it possible that we just have different definitions of what the desired outcome is here? Without simply saying that it’s “wrong”, can you describe the benefit of going through all these steps?
My desired outcomes are:
- My work monitor and home monitor display images the same in Photoshop
- While creating my art, I can visualize images as closely as possible to how it will appear in-game and in other non-managed apps on an average decent quality monitor
I’m sorry but I’m really having trouble following. I’ve re-read what you’ve written many times but I barely understand half of it.
Remote (non color managed browser)
Plugged to your computer (using whatever profile you want, EDID or driver icc for that monitor seem a good choice, it “should” behave that way)
with HCFRI have no idea what you are describing here, but I’m also not sure if it’s something I need to worry about?
calibration + profile check. You named othr screens and I say that these are no reference unless measured & validated.
Example WLED 99% sRGB display (it is a little bigger than sRGB, intersection gives 99):
Calibrate to 2.2, simple matrix profille 1 curve, BPC active. Let’s assume that resulting profile describes calibrated display with reasonable accuracy
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile will show brither dark greys in Photoshop than in MS paint, as intended
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile using “Monitor RGB” will show a little oversaturated primaries because typically they are beyond sRGB (although close, see a gamut plot of your display profile) and darker greys than in sRGB.
-sRGB content with embebed sRGB profile using softproof + prevserve RGB numbers on a synthetic Rec709/sRGB profile with 2.2g will show how things will render non color managed on an ideal display with exactly sRGB gamut and 2.2 gamma.Do you mean simply selecting sRGB as the “Device to simulate” in the Proof settings? This shows no difference in the image.
I did not say that, not even close. It is explained in quoted text.
If you truly aim to create content for non color managed aps like games to be played in displays with sRGB primaries and 2.2 gamma, encode content that way (that content is not sRGB). That way Photoshop and an ideal diaplay behaving that way will show the same.
What do you mean by “encode”? How do I encode it? What is “encode content that way”?
All RGB content is encoded (RGB numbers) in some colorspace.
No profile but you belive that content is X = assign
reencode to show same color in colorspace X = convertno. Embeding may be assigning or converting. beware. choose what you really want to do.
No profile but you belive that content is X = assign
reencode to show same color in colorspace X = convertI assume you are talking about “Convert to Profile” in Photoshop – but between which colorspaces am I supposed to convert?
“choose what you really want to do.” The 2 examples are explained above depending on situation
Currently the image has no profile, which I believe means it is interpreted as sRGB by default? At least converting to sRGB makes no difference.
No. RGB untagged is display colorspace.
You keep saying Monitor RGB is “wrong” and “not accurate”, but as far as I can tell, that’s the closest I get to seeing how other people will view my art in the game, while I’m creating the art. Is it possible that we just have different definitions of what the desired outcome is here? Without simply saying that it’s “wrong”, can you describe the benefit of going through all these steps?
No. Working in Monitor RGB is wrong. PERIOD.
Explained before some ways to deal with uncalibrated displays:
BTW: If you truly aim to create content for non color managed aps like games to be played in displays with sRGB primaries and 2.2 gamma, encode content that way (that content is not sRGB). That way Photoshop and an ideal display behaving that way will show the same.
My desired outcomes are:
- My work monitor and home monitor display images the same in Photoshop
That means calibrate & profile.
- While creating my art, I can visualize images as closely as possible to how it will appear in-game and in other non-managed apps on an average decent quality monitor
Encode content in the colorspace that you “belive” that is the most common behavior of a bunch of consumer monitor.
(You can’t since P3 gaming displays witjout srGB emulation are common these days, but the above example should work: content encoded in sRGB primaries and 2.2g)I did not say that, not even close. It is explained in quoted text.
Yes, I suspected I didn’t actually understand what you said. My response was an attempt to translate your theoretical descriptions into more specific steps I have to perform. If what I said was wrong, I hoped that you could correct me with a simpler explanation that I could understand.
BTW: If you truly aim to create content for non color managed aps like games to be played in displays with sRGB primaries and 2.2 gamma, encode content that way (that content is not sRGB). That way Photoshop and an ideal display behaving that way will show the same.
I understand that this is a high level description of what I should be doing, but I don’t understand what this means in practice. What menus and buttons do I click to “encode” the content correctly in Photoshop?
Thanks again for answering, and I really do appreciate your patience so far, but if this can’t be explained in simpler terms or as a step-by-step on what settings to use and what to actually click in the app, it might just remain above my level of understanding. Or I might have to do more reading on the topic and try again later (though every time I google these subjects I find very contradicting advice..). Maybe I had an unrealistic expectation that there would be a simple formula/tutorial.
Encode content in the colorspace that you “belive” that is the most common behavior of a bunch of consumer monitor.
The main things that confuse me are still this: <i>how </i> do I encode the content in the right colorspace (like literally which buttons am I supposed to be pressing), and which colorspace is that?
A more friendly expanation:
-You believe that some good office IPS sRGB monitor tracks sRGB TRC non color managed “out of the box”. Unlikely (measure it and check: validating EDID profile with DisplayCAL, using HCFR, remote web measurement on a non color managed browser for Android tablets & phones…)
-Your calibrated & profiled display shows sRGB content (content with embebed sRGB profile) as intended. It is the way you see it IF it is sRGB (which is not the same as assuming that is sRGB).
-Work (colormanaged) in a colorspace with sRGB primaries and 2.2g with your calibrated & profiled monitor. Content is sRGB with 2.2g, your display can be whatever you like, like a widegamut P3 with 2.4 gamma, it does not matter as long as display profile stores that info and is accurate)
Export that content (with or without embeded profile sicne its a non color managed game, do not convert it to sRGB).
Open that content in MS paint with that other “reference” common IPS office monitor (non color managed). IF that IPS office monitor behaves like a sRGB monitor with 2.2g it will look close to what you see in Photoshop.-If some (sRGB only) office displays track sRGB TRC and others track 2.2gamma out if the box and you want to see how non color managed games will look on both, choose some working colorspace (sRGB for example, 1st type) and use softproof with preserve RGB numbers in the other colorspace when you want to simulate (2nd type of office monitors).
In the end non color managed is the jungle (and P3 gamming monitors only worses it) and you can only predict color managed workflows. But you can guess. If you guess that most consumer sRGB monitors track 2.2gamma, encode content that way = its RGB numbers are encoded in a colrospace with sRGB primaries and 2.2gamma (instead of sRGB TRC).
Here’s goot set of sRGB test images. You need images with some standard profile to test ICC workflow. Photoshop converts image from its original profile to display profile with relative colorimetric rendering and black point compensation, then passes it to screen. You can’t convert image with no profile, so Photoshop actually assigns default RGB profile to those images when it passes them to screen, but “no profile” is shown in image properties. Paint, by example, can’t work with profiles, it simply passes RGB values to screen. If your profile has calibration curves, they’re applied at the final output stage by videocard, Photoshop doesn’t touch this part of display profile. Standard profiles like sRGB and manufaturer profiles, comming with driver, don’t contain calibration curves, cause these curves are generally needed to correct some “not well” device. Please, remake your profile with new correction and check the look of attached images in Photoshop, in Paint and in your smartphone/tablet viewer (full downloaded image files). Set mobile screen to “standard” or “natural” colors and switch off any automatic correction, set white brightness close to display, correct color tint, if possible, you may use TrueTone standing near windows in sunny day.
Work (colormanaged) in a colorspace with sRGB primaries and 2.2g with your calibrated & profiled monitor.
I’m still not 100% on what this actually means. I assume you are not talking about selecting sRGB as the Working Space in Photoshop? (the default) Again, I unfortunately simply don’t understand what I need to click in Photoshop to follow your advice.
Here’s goot set of sRGB test images. You need images with some standard profile to test ICC workflow.
Thanks for the general explanation. I’m not sure exactly how I should analyze these images, but they all definitely look worse color-managed compared to non-managed/MonitorRGB. In fact every photo or painting I’ve looked at so far looks worse.
I think the biggest thing turning me off color management right now is the high amount of banding I’m suddenly seeing in the blacks. The difference between 0%, 1% or 2% brightness is significant, and I simply can’t get smooth transitions in the darks anymore. I wish I could somehow make you see exactly what I’m seeing, because it just seems so strange to me that this is supposed to be “correct” and better in some way. I really like the idea of working more “correct” in theory, and I hope I can figure it out in a way that makes my experience better instead of worse.
Work (colormanaged) in a colorspace with sRGB primaries and 2.2g with your calibrated & profiled monitor.
I’m still not 100% on what this actually means. I assume you are not talking about selecting sRGB as the Working Space in Photoshop? (the default) Again, I unfortunately simply don’t understand what I need to click in Photoshop to follow your advice.
No. I’m talking about use as embeded profile for your images “X profile”, where X is the mean/ideal colorspace of your non color managed display targets. Likely to be a RGB colorspace with sRGB primaries and 2.2g.
If you do not understand this, pay a course or webinar on color management. Without the basics… it’s pointless to go further.
I think the biggest thing turning me off color management right now is the high amount of banding I’m suddenly seeing in the blacks. The difference between 0%, 1% or 2% brightness is significant, and I simply can’t get smooth transitions in the darks anymore. I wish I could somehow make you see exactly what I’m seeing, because it just seems so strange to me that this is supposed to be “correct” and better in some way. I really like the idea of working more “correct” in theory, and I hope I can figure it out in a way that makes my experience better instead of worse.
This can be caused by your GPU/driver: get an AMD card or learn to use DWMLUT (maybe novideo_sRGB too, I cannot test it)
or/and (both possible)
it can be caused by rounding errors in color management:
This can be fixed if color management engine & app uses dithering (Lightroom, C1, Acobe Camera Raw) or if you work with 16bit images and 30bit output in photoshop works (you may enable it, but it may not work).
This means that it wont work for 8bit PS, Illustrator, Krita, GIMP… etc.
Use simple display profiles (matrix + 1 curve + BPC, medium or slow calibration speed) to minimize these unavoidable errors.I think I finally figured out what you were referring to, which is the “Custom RGB” option in Photoshop (?), that lets you create a new colorspace. It took me some googling to realize that option even existed. For others interested, I attached screenshots of where it can be found. If I select sRGB primaries with 2.2 gamma it behaves exactly as you described. That was a big part of my confusion.
I also found the following article enlightening, which helped me understand better the differences between 2.2 and sRGB, which you referred to a few times: https://medium.com/@tomforsyth/the-srgb-learning-curve-773b7f68cf7a
I will keep reading to try to understand this more deeply, re-profile both my home and work monitors, and see if this workflow works out. Thanks again for your help and patience.
I will also give the different Correction option a try… though it’s tricky because as far as I can tell my monitor’s color gamut size is exactly in-between sRGB and P3. Does the “Correction” backlight setting have huge impact on the profiling result, or are differences usually minor? In other words, is it critical to get this setting exactly right?
Does the “Correction” backlight setting have huge impact on the profiling result
Yes, it does. i1Display Pro measures three light emissions through L, M and S-like filters, these are human eye cones sensitivity spectra. But displays emiss very different R, G and B spectra. Blue is almost the same in all LED displays, green varies more, but red may be very different. Office panels have partially orange red and can’t display purple, while Macs and studio-class Eizo have saturated red spectral peak. You can see these fugures switching between embedded corrections. A correcton for limited-gamut display constricts the image of display real gamut and profile will output wrong colors. Yes, you can use spectral correction for different model when lighting is similar, but don’t trust in resulting white point, other display has different RGB balance, correct your WP by eye. Better way is matrix correction for your own display and your instance of i1Display (that is not precise in colors) based on spectral measurement, this may provide better WP measurement. However, i1Pro devices also show some different white points, moreover math model still don’t describe well human perception of gamut-limited LED panels.
P.S. To get sRGB+gamma 2.2 ICC profile run Synthetic Profile Creator from your DisplayCAL tool set.
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Calibrite Display Pro HL on Amazon
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.other display has different RGB balance
Just self-correction: other displays with the same lighting may have slightly different RGB spectral curves, this is enough to get some wrong WP.
