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–Generic profiles from driver or from edid data do not have “calibration curves” or if present they are linear, so no calibration is applied on GPU. Output = Input. It’s so obvious that no requires further explanation.
-TRC from driver profile or profile from EDID data usually stores sRGB TRC for almost every modern display. There is a guy with an UP3216Q here, ask him about factory/driver ICM.
-Apple desktop is color managed (in a wrong and limited way). Their bugs have been arround since a few macOS versions.
-Factory calibration is a somehow corrupted name, but in most manufacturers it means more or less “D65 white” (Apple fails here, its a bit cooler but white), sRGB-2.2 gamma (mid+ grade displays usually meets this) and neutral grey (expected from high end display ans a lot of mid-grade displays).
It is reasonable for an All In On of its price that macbooks or imacs meet “white but maybe cooler that D65”, “sRGB or 2.2 gamma” and “neutral grey” (without color tint in grey)… as it happens in all mid to high end displays.So again, Apple makes no special baking for their profiles and also a DTP-94 is not a suitable probe for measuring widegamut LED displays.
If you prefer to believe fantasies about tailor made magically polished profies from Apple I not going to stop you… but they are fantasies with no proofs supporting them. Proof actually suuport the opposite: “generic icc profile” like all manufacturers and HW with reasonale “factory calibration”. Do you want to test last one? get a suitabe neasurement devic efor those displays.So what’s that detailed calibration curve doing in the Apple-supplied profile?
I posted both the curves and the profile itself early on in this thread
Not only is there a calibration carve in the Apple-supplies profile but it provides an alignment on close par with the DCal alignment. Exvept Apple presents 2.4, while I am targeting sRGB
As to the DTP94, it is delivering apparently correct results with these 2009 CCFl Dells, and its results for the LED 2012 MBP are now matching the Dells. Sure it could be wrong, but visually all checks out across board and I am in no position to argue further about this point. I’ve taken your points about the DTO94 for what they’re worth.
As to bugs in MacOS, as they designed and built the ICC and were the innovators far ahead of the market, maybe the have good reasons their SW doesn’t handle 3D LUT profiles? Their SW is also rife with bugs and dumb designs, so they’re also idiots who don’t know what they’re SW is doing. Confusing times. But let’s stay upbeat!
Just to drive the point home—the proof—here are some screenshots taken with WB/exp lock that show the display with 3 different alignments:
- 2012 Macbook Pro native response (very blue),
- Apple-supplied calibration
- DCal / DTP94 2.4 calibration.
Also attached is Apple’s supplied profile.
Of note is that the Apple-supplied cal is a bit darker in the vary bottom end than the DCal 2.4, but overall tonality is 2.4. The native panel response looks like about 2.2. Measured gamut is about 93% sRGB.
Please notice ZERO difference in gray balance between the Apple-supplied alignment and the DCal alignment. Apple hits color balance dead on up and down the whole tonal range. Again, I will claim Apple punched up contrast on this display for appeal. In 2012 the Retina was just being introduced. I don’t think Apple offered a laptop IPS display before the retina. A “pro” laptop display was still pretty lame compared to 2019 state of the art.
QUESTION: How does Apple do this with simple EDID input == output config?
ANSWER: They don’t. They add a calibration curve.
Q.E.D.
Vincent, the next time you want to beat me over the head, please take the time to actually read and understand my posts first.
Not only is there a calibration carve in the Apple-supplies profile but it provides an alignment on close par with the DCal alignment. Exvept Apple presents 2.4, while I am targeting sRGB
No, bundled profile stores linear calibration curves AS WITH ANY OTHER DISPLAY.
If there are GPU calibration curves in your display profile you made them (some calibration tool, visual calibration tool provided by OS or copy a profile form another person), not Apple. It’s so obvious no requires further explanation.
“Factory calibration” is not done at GPU level, it will be very stupid to do it that way since GPU calibration has some drawbacks.VENDOR/EDID profiles :
-linear calibration curves (NO GPU calibration applied)
-(very likely) sRGB TRC
-sRGB primaries or EDID RGB primaries or EDID equivalent primaries supplied by manufecturer (ICM instaled by driver in Windows)You are mistaking severeal terms: vendor display profile, the one you made with a visual tool (1st message), the one you made with a DTP94… etc
So all your deductions are wrong, from the beginning.If you want to restore vendor provided profile, look in your hardrive and check if it was not overwritten by something YOU made like a visual calibration tool provided by most modern OSes (Color-LCD-E2D0B55C-862D-4B0E-BA07-E1BD2579493F.icc), or you may try to recover it with DisplayCAL using EDID data.
That profile is produced by MacOS. It’s not my creation. If I delete that profile, it is automatically regenerated.
Wondering why you are suffering a mental block on this point? But please get over it.
Apple traditionally supplies good alignments for its displays and they do it through built-in profiles.
That profile is produced by MacOS. It’s not my creation. If I delete that profile, it is automatically regenerated.
If there are GPU calibration curves in your display profile you made them (some calibration tool, visual calibration tool provided by OS or copy a profile form another person), not Apple. It’s so obvious no requires further explanation.
-Learn the basics
-1st & 2nd message in this thread
-You are mistaking everything … and that is solely your fault.So vendor default profile stores no calibration and it is very likely to store sRGB TRC for all modern displays.
No special magic from Apple, or from Dell, or from LG… or whatever, vanilla vendor profile. Magic happens only in some users head.
On top of that most modern OSes have some visual calibration tool to fix whitepoint gamma… and that is a user made profile with OS tool, but user made.You need to learn the basics.
Sure, Vincent, let’s leave it at that.
Feel free to catch up about this topic someday when you have access to a system and can test it for yourself.
Until then, DisplayCal is nice software and makes a difference for me, so thank you to everyone who makes it possible.
Sure, Vincent, let’s leave it at that.
Feel free to catch up about this topic someday when you have access to a system and can test it for yourself.
And it won’t be a vendor supplied profile. It would be a profile mabe by user preferences with an OS tool and all the fancy failsafes that most modern OSes have to avoid users from deleting configuration.
It won’t be very smart for a manufacturer to limit a brand new laptop with a profile that limits its unique grey levels to 82% as the one attached in 1st message, ~210/256 unique grey levels at native white! Older non AMD GPUs were not very kind regarding that subject.
Sensible “factory calibration” is done at one step lower level, after GPU, usualy in a not user writable LUT.Until then, DisplayCal is nice software and makes a difference for me, so thank you to everyone who makes it possible.
We agree
I might know where this convo has gone wrong..,
My systems are a 2008 Mac Pro, which has the Dell 2009WAs, several Macbook Pros with their built-in displays. And a friend’s Mac Mini with an LG Ultrafine.
Let’s ignore the Macs with the Dells and the LG.
The only displays I claim get Apple-defined cal are the Macbooks. I am not claiming, nor have I claimed, that Apple does any built-in cal on the non-Apple displays. I’m sure they don’t.
But I can see how what I’ve been saying might be construed as such.
To be clear, having immediate access to three TN Macbooks (2008, 2011, 2012) and having worked with many more, with notorious TN native color cast, I’ve had ample opportunity to experiment, and Apple coughs up a cal in the form of an ICC profile which normalizes these displays to make them look neutral and properly toned. This is something anyone with access to such a system can demonstrate for themselves.
I’ll go farther and say Apple has focused on making the displays they sell neutral and balanced according to some standard. It’s not perfect but they pay attention to it. They are refining this further these days with convergence of their products on Display P3.
Apple doesn’t cal non Apple displays. They never have in my long experience. For 3rd party display, MacOS makes an agnostic EDID profile. I agree this is obvious to anyone who works with this stuff, so much so I haven’t even bothered to try to discuss it. If it sounds like I’ve been claiming otherwise, I am doing a poor job of explaining.
For purposes of this discussion, all my comments about Apple-supplied profile have been in immediate context of 2012 MBP.
Maybe confusion over these finer points explains the discord on this topic?
If there’s continuing doubt my report re MBP, the test will be to try one yourself and report what you find.
Maybe we’ll discover I have a split personality and my other identity wakes up and creates a custom calibration for this Macbook while the one who is writing this post is asleep…
To be clear, having immediate access to three TN Macbooks (2008, 2011, 2012) and having worked with many more, with notorious TN native color cast, I’ve had ample opportunity to experiment, and Apple coughs up a cal in the form of an ICC profile which normalizes these displays to make them look neutral and properly toned. This is something anyone with access to such a system can demonstrate for themselves.
As I wrote previously that is not a very intelligent way to deal with color cast in grey for “factory calibration” because it has drawbacks and older GPUs (hybrid iGPU + dGPU, even new ones) were not so kind when you load a calibration in GPU LUT that wipes out 20% of its unique values. There is a loss, gradients are not forgiving.
A sensible choice by manufacturer as “factory calibration” would be using a LUT with high bitdepth and dithering at HW level.
But it’s Apple after all so all imaginable cost cutting at the expense of image quality could be possible. A lame design at best.@vincent, while I appreciate you trying to help, and user-to-user discussion is something I wholeheartedly encourage, I would also appreciate a more civil and friendly style of discussion in the future. Just a reminder.
OK, but storing a calibration in GPU that wipes out 20% of greys in an iGPU + nv 6xxM system from 2012 (?) is not close to what I would call a “factory calibration” on behalf of final user interests.
There are better ways and I’m sure that they can do it and do it right now in a better way regarding grey factory calibration of current Macbooks & iMacs. Even some cheap entry level 6bit panel monitors do it in the right way.That complain was against Apple for that extremely limited design… not related to users in this forum.
As to concerns / comments you may have about the shortcomings of Apple’s approach, engineering details are always interesting.
It appears to produce the full 8-bits (or 8 1/2 with dither covering the other half). It doesn’t suffer from gross lumps in gray linearity or banding.
Caveat: my eyes are crap. But I know how to look.
If you’ve never seen the display in action you might be surprised at how well they make it work, and how third party cal does’t substantially improve out of box perf. It’s well engineered.
As to “behalf of user interests,” of course that panel tech has very obvious limits. By standards of last 6 years much has improved. Yet even with its considerable shortcomings, somehow it is still serviceable, looking at color on it is pleasing, and it will not cause anyone who produces color with it to emit crap that makes users of more advanced tech fall out of their chairs in dismay.
If you just want to beat up Apple—and many do so you’ll alwsys find an approving audience—do it on a topic where they deserve it, not color, where they’ve always done better than most.
As to “behalf of user interests,” of course that panel tech has very obvious limits. By standards of last 6 years much has improved. Yet even with its considerable shortcomings, somehow it is still serviceable, looking at color on it is pleasing, and it will not cause anyone who produces color with it to emit crap that makes users of more advanced tech fall out of their chairs in dismay.
Not related to panel itself but how they corrected it. If they did as you claim they did in the wrong way. I wrote it prevously why, I also put a counter example in entry level cheap displays like 24″ IPS&TN 6bit panel + dithering. “Factory calibration”, or OSD with “factory calibration” (whatever quality they aimed to) it’s done with a higher bitdepth than panel LUT plus dither, at HW level. If you want a more specific example a lot of old VW models from Asus (6bit TN) have a fairly good sRGB OSD mode. Or some old or new 6bit IPS in dell U series (although in some of them factory calibrated mode is sRGB, in others Standard).
That feature is not guaranteed if you rely on iGPU + dGPU 6xxM GT “hybrid GPU” setups because of LUT HW itself (GPU) or how it is managed. Lot of examples in web or in some older threads here.
Proper way of doing it would be same calibration curves loaded in a dedicated (& inexpensive) piece of HW between GPU output and panel (or in panel itself it they support some kind of firmw correction).If you just want to beat up Apple—and many do so you’ll alwsys find an approving audience—do it on a topic where they deserve it, not color, where they’ve always done better than most.
Not even close, at least this last 10-15 years. They were and are lagging behind, they are objective facts:
-White point correction should be done in GPU, even in desktop setups. 70-80% unique grey levels in D50… not very good.
-Glossy, but most consumer oriented laptops suffer this too (and a lot of good ones do not, with IPS/WVA matte sRGB like screens)
-Not best HW for GPU calibration till they moved to AMD (nice move!)
-No way to properly use colorspace emulation available in advanced monitors because color managed desktop (I can emulate how a web looks in a “Not strictly sRGB” tablet on the fly with a NEC on Windows, same for mobiles, some TVs used in fashion stores… I just need to profile or have a sample of those screens). In not so advanced widegamut monitors (win) or Macs you have to rely on application softproof.
-Bad color engine for its color managed desktop. Lost of examples in this forum, forum itself its an encyclopedia about it.
-No coverage of AdobeRGB printable colors since last iMac with the same panel as U2711 (widegamut CCFL). That is like a coup de grace for new photographers that may have be interested in Apple desktop computers. Apple is a no go zone right now if you want to use that tools, also with people trapped inside (paid licenses, years of experience on one platform … etc)Mostly… they don’t care about users that need to work with color.
That does not mean that they did not deserve some niche market and an active community of developers. In the same way this does not undervalue that they are leading in mobile features highly valued by users and UX (which it’s VERY important these days). Thay have to be praised for that.
It just means that they care little to none to color, photography & such. Nothing less, nothing more. Their interest in color is limited to pushing forward P3 de facto standarization as the new “web colorspace” (so they can color manage “less”).But this is offtopic, I was just answering you.
