Crushed blacks with color management on in Premiere Pro

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  • #31505

    Googloiss
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    Hi!

    I’m having an issue and I don’t know what it depends on. It’s rather simple: with the color management checked in Premiere’s preferences, I see crushed blacks in the program monitor, but if I export the timeline and view it with media player classic home cinema (with color management on), then there are no blacks crushed, as well as in the export’s preview inside Premiere. Why I have crushed blacks in the program monitor? What is this issue related to? Premiere itself, displaycal profiling…?

    Here is my displaycal settings (using a wide gamut LG 31MU97 monitor):

    – Output levels: Full Range
    – Correction: LCD GB-r-LED IPS (Dell U2413)
    – Interactive display adjustment: on
    – White point: x 0.3127 y 0.3290
    – White level: 100 cd/m2
    – Black level: native
    – Tone curve: Gamma 2.4 / relative
    – Black output offset: 100%
    – Black point correction: 0%
    – Rate: 4
    – Speed: medium
    – XYZ LUT + matrix
    – Default rendering intent: relative colorimetric
    – BPC (black point compensation): NOT checked
    – Quality: high
    – Testchart: auto-optimized
    – Amount of patches: 2600

    Hope to find a solution, thank you!

    #31506

    Vincent
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    Hi!

    I’m having an issue and I don’t know what it depends on. It’s rather simple: with the color management checked in Premiere’s preferences, I see crushed blacks in the program monitor, but if I export the timeline and view it with media player classic home cinema (with color management on), then there are no blacks crushed, as well as in the export’s preview inside Premiere. Why I have crushed blacks in the program monitor? What is this issue related to? Premiere itself, displaycal profiling…?

    – BPC (black point compensation): NOT checked

    Hope to find a solution, thank you!

    Profile stores non ideal (non infinite) contrast, it stores actual black value. Content colorspace works as if content had infinite contrast (RGB input 0 expects output 0cd/m2 because of content colorspace TRC). Color management just do what is asked to.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #31513

    Googloiss
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    Hi Vincent, I don’t understand your reply, do you suggest to check black point compensation? But why am I seeing this issue only in the program monitor of Premiere?

    Also, from what I know color managed softwares already apply their black point compensation, so there’s no need to check that option in displaycal, this is what I knew.

    #31530

    Vincent
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    Hi Vincent, I don’t understand your reply, do you suggest to check black point compensation? But why am I seeing this issue only in the program monitor of Premiere?

    ‘Cause it may be faulty. Easy to check.

    Also, from what I know color managed softwares already apply their black point compensation, so there’s no need to check that option in displaycal, this is what I knew.

    #31540

    Googloiss
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    Vincent, I’ve tried with the BPC (black point compensation) checked, same story. Why the program monitor is so offset compared to MPC-HC and the export preview in Premiere? It’s really frustrating.

    #31541

    Vincent
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    Did that happen after some update not long ago? I cannot test it because AMD discontinued support for older GCN and newer Adobe versions do not like latest legacy driver (loose GPU aceleration for zoom)

    #31633

    Googloiss
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    No, I actually have the 2020 version of Premiere. But now I bought a mini converter SDI to HDMI 6G to use with my mini monitor 4K, so that I have a lutbox with which I can bypass OS and finally get some reliable results. Maybe that bug in Premiere’s program monitor is only with my current version, I hope with the latest all is as it should be… I’ll give it a try by updating further on.

    A question about the mini converter: if I profile my monitor and create a 3D LUT through DaVinci/Calman/Decklink/Converter, I can also use it with Premiere, loaded from the mini converter, right? Or are there any mismatches?

    And a question about displaycal profiling and 3D LUT creating using this mini converter: before I got it, so with straight HDMI from Decklink to LG 31MU97, I had reached 99.8% srgb coverage, now i’m at 98.7%, same settings in everything, both displaycal and decklink. And from the verification tests I also see a worsening of the DE (from average 0.44 to 0.83, from peak 1.58 to 2.24 – identified in different colors: respectively 2 and 32, so black in the old LUT and light blue in the new one) and of the contrast (from 914.6: 1 to 855.7: 1, with a slightly higher black point, from 0.1096 to 0.1174). I thought SDI was more accurate and professional than HDMI, why this downgrade? And should I bother?

    Thank you.

    #31637

    Vincent
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    A question about the mini converter: if I profile my monitor and create a 3D LUT through DaVinci/Calman/Decklink/Converter, I can also use it with Premiere, loaded from the mini converter, right? Or are there any mismatches?

    IDNK LUT3D format & range supported by that converter, you’ll need to go to manufecturer web and see specs. Also DisplayCAL can generate lot of LUT3D format… but that will be stored in a file. That LUT3D box you name shoudl have some kind of propietary software to upload LUT3D to that, DisplayCAL won’t make it alone.

    #31638

    Googloiss
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    Yes, the converter has its software where you can store up to two .cube 33x33x33 3D LUT. I already know this and did that process, what I meant was: I made the profiling through Resolve/Calman (and the video signal they sent to decklink), not through Premiere, does it make any difference? With the same timeline settings, the video signal that send Resolve is the same that send Premiere? 

    #31639

    Vincent
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    Yes, the converter has its software where you can store up to two .cube 33x33x33 3D LUT. I already know this and did that process, what I meant was: I made the profiling through Resolve/Calman (and the video signal they sent to decklink), not through Premiere, does it make any difference? With the same timeline settings, the video signal that send Resolve is the same that send Premiere? 

    Open the same video file on both apps, like a series of Rec709 saturation patches and measure them with Argyll’s spotread, HCFR or calman equivalent.

    #31640

    Googloiss
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    I don’t know these softwares, I use displaycal not the single argyll or calman softwares…

    By the way, what about the differences between profiling before and after using the mini converter? Why are there those downgrades?

    • This reply was modified 10 hours, 55 minutes ago by Googloiss.
    #31642

    Vincent
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    Profiling is just measuring a device response.

    If you use a LUT3D in a display with a colorspace bigger (or almost) than certain colorspace (Rec709) and LUT3D is good enogh the profile that describes such display is the simulated colorspace.
    If LUT3D is good and there are no other HW or SW issues, profiling display attached to a LUT3D will result in a colorspace almost equal to simulated colospace.

    #31643

    Googloiss
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    My monitor, a wide gamut LG 31MU97, has 100% sRGB and 99.5% adobe RGB, so I should have had 100% sRGB in the generated 3DLUT, why do I have 98.7% instead? Can I improve this? And also, should I bother about this 1.3% downgrade from 100% or it’s irrelevant?

    #31644

    Vincent
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    My monitor, a wide gamut LG 31MU97, has 100% sRGB and 99.5% adobe RGB, so I should have had 100% sRGB in the generated 3DLUT, why do I have 98.7% instead?

    Because it is not 100% sRGB. Original native gamut profile used for making LUT3D was not 100% hance resulting LUT3D cannot be bigger than native gamut no matter what you do.
    I think you should go to start point and understand what a LUT3D is, where it comes from, and what is native gamut and colorspace coverage.

    Is it relevant? use all the tools at your disposal, like 3D viewers, to see which colors in srGB fall outside your display colorspace. Very likely to not be an issue at all with suhc high coverage.

    #31645

    Googloiss
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    When I make an ICC profile with displaycal of my wide gamut monitor (so no 3DLUT, no decklink, no resolve, simply displaycal straight to monitor in wide gamut mode), I obtain 99.8% sRGB, so with the 3DLUT I know I can’t go up to 100%, but I should be able to arrive at that same 99.8%, am I wrong? Instead I have 98.7, 1.1% less.

    Viewing the graphic coverage of the 98.7% profiling in displaycal, the tip of the blue doesn’t go all the way, infact in the verification test, 32-light blue is the color with the highest dE, I think it’s correlated. During the interactive correction of the screen, in order to have 0.3127 0.3290 I set R:50 G:44 B:30 (50 is the maximum), so the blue channel is a lot lower in comparison to the other two, maybe this is why I then have 98.7% sRGB? Maybe I should raise the blue channel, not caring about the white level, and let displaycal compensate it but having more blue values to work with (?)

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