Activate 3DLUT in win10

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  • #30338

    user3434343
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    HI, after profiling, I’ve created a 3DLUT in displaycal for Rec709, which was saved as ICC/ICM, all without problems and with good calibrations results. For color managed software, it would great to use the ICC with the embedded 3DLut. However, if we try to import and activate the ICC profile in the color management of win10, we get the message: the profile … could not be assigned to the device “monitor 1…”.  Wrong parameter.

    Unfortunately no more descriptions. Does anyone has an idea what is happening here?

    Many thanks!!

    #30341

    Vincent
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    It does not work that way.

    1. You create an ICC (call it profile A) with an accurate display description. This is all color managed apps need to render accurately an image in a colorsapce X into your screen.
    2. You also want to crate a LUT3D. A LUT3D is a crystalized transfromation between  some content colorspace and only THAT colorspace to your display colorspace. Such lut3D can be stored as some specific format (.cube) or as a DEVICE LINK profile (an icc, call it B)
    3. Profile B cannot be used as display profile because it does not describe a device, your display. It is meant to be “chained” to another profile because it is a lut3d, a crystalized transformation from one colorspace to another.
    4. It is useless to use such LUT3D in a color managed app …. it is not needed. Just use as display profile the “profile A” and for each image content colorspace it will calculate on the fly proper transformation. Photoshop for example can open a JPG sRGB, and AdobeRGB TIFF, a ProPhotoRGB TIFF, an eciRGBv2 TIFF etc… it’s pointless to lock software to A SINGLE crysalized transformation when it can use ALL.
    5. LUT3D/device link ICM are meant to be used IN DISPLAYS  for fast color transformations, mostly video world since there is only one or perhaps 3 content colorspaces.
    #30347

    user3434343
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    many thanks, understood so far!

    I am just wondering, because we do it different in lightspace/colourspace software:

    There, you have a precal profiling (as with displaycal).

    Then you create from that a 3DLUT, where you “match” your native space to the colourspace you want e.g. AdobeRGB. Then, if you don’t have a monitor with internal 3dlut, you can from this 3DLUT create an ICC, which is V4 and they basically put in the 3d matrix in this ICC. That works quite nice in some cases, but we thought for profiling of e.g. internal monitors without 3DLUT, displaycal might be a much better and easier choice.

    However, according to your comments, this procedure like we do with colourspace makes not really sense??

    #30348

    Vincent
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    I am just wondering, because we do it different in lightspace/colourspace software:

    There, you have a precal profiling (as with displaycal).

    Then you create from that a 3DLUT, where you “match” your native space to the colourspace you want e.g. AdobeRGB. Then, if you don’t have a monitor with internal 3dlut, you can from this 3DLUT create an ICC, which is V4 and they basically put in the 3d matrix in this ICC. That works quite nice in some cases, but we thought for profiling of e.g. internal monitors without 3DLUT, displaycal might be a much better and easier choice.

    However, according to your comments, this procedure like we do with colourspace makes not really sense??

    That is useless and counterproductive for displays without HW cal*

    Leave display in native gamut, correct white & grey using your favourite software, then after such calibration, measure display and make a profile (DisplayCAL makes all this chain of steps when you calibrate). That profile is all that Ps or Lr needs… and you have to do nothing since Ps will ask OS for current default display profile, (do not mess with Ps configuration unless you know what you are doing)
    Depending on GPU, driver and link there may be some rounding errors in procesing chaing, from GPU luts (for grey, if they have no dithering) to Ps bitdepth truncation, hence some posterization may happen… but if you made a LUT3D Ps+gpu driver truncations will happen too and you loose the feature of opening “WHATEVER image you want”, since that LUT3D only wokrs for that contnte colorspace.

    LUT3D are meant for fast color transfromation that can be embeded on some HW (like monitors or LUTboxes) and for works where content colorspace is always the same (for example Rec709)

    *) for monitors with HW cal it is useless too unless that content colorspace is the only one you are going to use (like all your images meant to be AdobeRGB or smaller colospace that fits inside AdoberGB). It would be a waste. For example most widegmaut photo displays since 2010 have +- sRGB blue, +- AdoberGB green and +- P3 red, that way you can see cyans meant fro printing, magentas and oranges outside AdoberGB that are printable… etc.
    So for Photoshop use as a “general” rule is best to use full native gamut, not a LUT3D limitation for some colorspace.
    A HW lut3d make sense if you want to simulate an sRGB display for creatives working on CAD/CAM models for games, since a lot of CAD/CAM apps are not color managed… or video guys using non color managed apps or displays that are meant to be plugged to HW video players without color management.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #30354

    user3434343
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    ok understood.

    so what about the monitors with 3Dlut built-in for calibration e.g. Asus and Eizo?

    Would you there prefer to go for the 3Dlut calibration (which is limiting always to one colourspace I assume, you can’t use the “native” one in the LUT, right?) or would you also then not use the HW cal, but the ICC from displaycal??

    #30356

    Vincent
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    HW cal to correct grey & white, full native gamut, simplified profile. It’s default behaviour on most of these software for using with Ps/Lr.

    For CAD/CAM sRGB or video to Rec709 you can try simplified gamut simumation inside HW (vendor software) or a more accurate one (LUT3D in HW  like in Lightspace suite)

    #30364

    user3434343
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    So you would deactivate any 3DLUT in HW monitor when using PS/LR??

    #30366

    Vincent
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    So you would deactivate any 3DLUT in HW monitor when using PS/LR??

    Use native gamut HW cal with whatever tool you want. It would be stored on some CALx preset inside display. Calibration app will make a profile for that calibration and that profile will describe how that preset behaves. That’s all you need.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #30369

    user3434343
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    just to understand:

    you would recommend something like:

    • building 3DLUT HW in the monitor e.g. with colourspace(lightspace).
    • Then run e.g. displaycal with this preset in monitor activated to generate a suitable ICC for handling this monitor in win10?

    many thanks

    #30372

    Vincent
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    For photoshop and a monitor with HW cal? Do not use Colorspace at all. Not needed… unless vendor app is useless or have some faults.

    Use vendor app, HW calibration to native gamut. It will make a profile after calibration and set it as display profile in OS. open Ps and start working.

    Some HW vendor app may be faulty because display is a low cost low quiality one and just measuring a few pacthes cannot correct all its irregulatirties, or because measurement device cannnot see backlight properly (xrite spectrophotometers) or because it lacks of proper colorimeter corrections for that display and that colorimeter.
    In this situations a 3rd party app can be very helpful since DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS/HCFR (that can solve or improve all these measureemnt issues)  do not support uploading calibrations to HW due to propietary SDK/libraries.
    These 3rd party app with acces to HW cal uploading shoudl be responsible to create a profile that describes after calibration behavior. Otherwise it would be a very silly app. Anyway, let’s assume that there is such app that writes  a HW cal to a dispaly but DO NOT measure it after calibration to create an ICC profile. In that scenario you can set all calibration tab in displaycal to “native”/”as measured” (so it won’t correct stuff in VCGT) and make a profile with DisplayCAL. Install that profile as default display profile in OS… and that’s all. Choose profile type accoring to your needs. For Ps on a well behaved display a “single curve+matrix” + “black point compensation” profile is a sweet spot. You can even skip that Displaycal step if you “trust” that calibrated display behaved like some known colorspace described by an ICC profile stored in your computer, like AdobeRGB if you use that 3rd party app to make display behave like AdoberGB. It would be pointless “For Photoshop/Lightroom” since you loose colors in native gamut that are printable (it makes sense to limit it to sRGB/Rec709 for some non color managed apps, but to limit it to AdobeRGB is useless).

    If you Lenovo does not support storing HW calibration inside its HW… its useles to try what you are doing. Just fix grey with DisplayCAL calibration and tahts all. After calibration install profile using DisplayCAL app and open Ps. That’s all.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by Vincent.
    #30378

    user3434343
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    Asking for the HW calibration ,was about another monitor we are using, an Asus HDR Proart with built-in 3DLut. Unfortunately, the ASUS calibration app (based on xrite) is completely useless. Thus, we are using for this colourspace(lightspace), because we can upload then to the monitor.

    And as you might already know, yes they are producing the 3DLUT for uplaod, but NO ICC for win10 at all. you can use another app in the suite to produce an ICC based on the 3DLUT for use in win, but this is for monitors without 3DLUT. However, it might be possible that the generic Asus ICC might recognize the “AdobeRGB” colourspace stamp when connecting to the monitor, at least the colors look ok, but we will check again.

    You said better not limiting to Adobe RGB for PS and LR. However, it will not be possible to produce a 3DLUT for upload based on the native gamut of the monitor. Would it then be a better idea to use a colorspce for 3DLUT, which is the monitor not capable to cover, like BT2020 in order not to loose any colors? Maybe wrong idea… 😉

    #30380

    Vincent
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    Asking for the HW calibration ,was about another monitor we are using, an Asus HDR Proart with built-in 3DLut. Unfortunately, the ASUS calibration app (based on xrite) is completely useless. Thus, we are using for this colourspace(lightspace), because we can upload then to the monitor.

    And as you might already know, yes they are producing the 3DLUT for uplaod, but NO ICC for win10 at all. you can use another app in the suite to produce an ICC based on the 3DLUT for use in win, but this is for monitors without 3DLUT. However, it might be possible that the generic Asus ICC might recognize the “AdobeRGB” colourspace stamp when connecting to the monitor, at least the colors look ok, but we will check again.

    You said better not limiting to Adobe RGB for PS and LR. However, it will not be possible to produce a 3DLUT for upload based on the native gamut of the monitor.

    It is possible, just set as calibration target desired white, gamma, brightness  and for colospace set native green red and blue coordinates as calibration colorspace (measure them, or read them).
    It’s the same as with AdobeRGB but with other triangle coordinates.

    Would it then be a better idea to use a colorspce for 3DLUT, which is the monitor not capable to cover, like BT2020 in order not to loose any colors? Maybe wrong idea… 😉

    Explained above

    #30389

    user3434343
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    ok will try as explained, many thanks!

    just to understand this too:

    You said that displaycal when calibrating/profiling the monitor does not need me to disable or use a NullICC, because not using it at all.

    But how to check the performance postcal with activated ICC? Is there any way in displaycal to do a postcal profiling (with activated ICC) to see how good the performance of the calibration really is? I know on the last tab there are some checks, but as far as I understand, there is just checked if the monitor changed to its own values since the last measurement, but nothing about the real world postcal performance with activated ICC?

    many thanks!

    #30390

    Vincent
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    Check message 30360

    Reply To: Measuring Color Accuracy on Smartphones

    A post calibration validation against the ICC profile created after calibration is done with a measurement report (1st option), “validate if profile maches display colorspace (default)”

    If you want to check how good your display is showing content in some colorspace X (sRGB for example) in a color managed app like pshotoshop, use 2nd option: Measurement report with simulation profile  (sRGB in this example) but WITHOUT selecting “use simulation profile as display profile” (because you will clean GPU grey calibration and current taylor made ICC profile)

    If want to check how good is factory calibration or HW calibration against some colorspace X, same as above but select “use simulation profile as display profile”

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Vincent.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Vincent.
    #30395

    user3434343
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    many thanks!! for the first option, which testchart or reference should be chosen there, there are huge number of options… but no option: “validate if profile matches display colorspace (default)”?

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