Matte in black in any cms’ software

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  • #141425

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    Hi all.
    Yes, the title is the same) I agree.
    This question most likely requires someone who understands how color management works in Windows. I would have asked this question on a completely different resource, but imagining the competence of people sitting on the forums on the system, I understand that they may have, albeit correct, general ideas about my question.

    I look at any photo and cannot achieve perfect black. At first, I was guilty of the fact that many of my photographs suffer from the fact that the dynamic range in the shadows in the photograph is very compressed. But, when I tried to export images to jpg format, and made the output option as srgb, then in the same Google Chrome browser I see that black is black (in Google Chrome), and not some kind of matte, hazy color. The situation is similar in Mozilla Firefox. The black there is the black in my photographs. On a smartphone (iphone 13), in the “photo” program, the same black is black, not matte, as in my rawtherapee, xnview, photoshop, lightroom, etc.
    I calibrated and profiled the monitor using i1Display pro. The colorimeter itself was recently tested by comparing the result with the X-RITE I1 PHOTO PRO spectrophotometer. I profiled them the same way – a similar result. Some kind of dullness in black tones is visible in the image if I open it in programs that support cms windows – rt, darktable, xnview etc, etc.
    I can assume that Internet browsers or smartphones do not support color reproduction correctly, but should I see black in programs that support a color management system?

    And I can’t understand the reasons.
    System: windows 10 21h2.
    Nvidia rtx 4070
    Display: AOC 27G2UBK

    I looked for the topic on various ones, but couldn’t find it. There are a lot of topics about all sorts of gamma shifts. About calibration and others, but the point I mentioned is just a disaster.
    What is needed here is a person who understands the basics of this system, but I don’t know where to find him.
    I am asking for help in this forum. Please help.

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    #141427

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    To be honest, I asked this question not so much out of curiosity and interest, but because of a complete stop in all work for this reason. It makes sense to do something if clients see a completely different brightness.

    #141428

    Ben
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    Our eyes see less range in shadows.   A dark room you can not see a lot of dynamic range in real life.   The browsers are color managed so look correct since the profile is calibrating gamma and color.    To get gamma the same in color managed and non color managed you need more controls on your monitor.    The best you can do is go by looks and use its shadow detail controls and then rerun a calibration for picture profile.     Maybe 2.2 gamma D65 temperature 120 cdm2  brightness.  You can do native on brightness and black point if not matching a display to another display.   You might see more detail with 100 offset for gammas  and bt1886.

    You do need to a lot of running a calibrated picture pattern to see that it looks ok and not have a tint.   My eyes are better than the brain reading graph in hcfr and set hcfr 81 points and a Calman pattern generator to 81 points with labels.    It shows the RGB number of the patterns.   If you can see 3 to 255 in differnet greys there is no black crush.    It may be uneven in brightness in the low end.   A steady decrease is better than a spike in brightness in the low end that washes everything out.  A low low brightness makes it more dynamic.

    #141429

    Ben
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    The offset 100 is for hcfr and for displaycal is 0 .   I had to use 100 input offset to see not get any black crush.   A matte grey sounds like the display.   You can try novid srgb and go to advanced and see dithering to spatial instead of temporal.  I wonder why I did not like temporal but it flickered to much for me in a dark room.

    #141430

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    The browsers are color managed so look correct since the profile is calibrating gamma and color.

    Let’s start in order. If I see a difference when looking at the same photo in the browser and in Photoshop, then from your words it turns out that everything is wrong in Photoshop?

    #141432

    Ben
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    Calman Pattern Generator free.  https://download.cnet.com/calman-htpc-pattern-generator/3000-2651_4-10814123.html    .      I advice to not make 3 rgb visible and then go to just visible.    If you had 20 point white balance you can crank up each point and see which rgb values it effects.   I do it by eye and then check.  Goal is not 100% right but the average is right between points right.    I look at 10 to 20 percent and adjust 10,15 and 20 controls.   If 10 and 20 is right  15 is the one to adjust.     15 does adjust 20 a little and it adjust 10 a little.     The chart really tells which it does adjust.    The numbers  reference in HCFR tell what numbers it displayed and measured.    Those numbers match your controls.

    #141433

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    This is the case here.
    You, I see, suffered greatly from a malfunctioning color management system on your computer and decided not to give up but to make solving the issue your profession or hobby. I apologize, but I’ll still make a reservation – I’m not so in tune with this whole topic to understand you and, following your good advice, start doing something to resolve the issue. I really respect your diligence and interest in the color management system, but I am afraid that in practice I will definitely not be able to solve this issue if I continue to listen to you. True, there is one thing – for the whole day, no one except you answered me. Well, not in a day, but in a decent amount of time. Although I didn’t ask on this forum “how many stars are there in the galaxy.”

    #141435

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    What about logic?
    Well, we are testing it. And what?
    There is a difference in the display in the two systems. One system looks at cms, and the other at something else. Whether the eyes see something there or not, they will see either badly in both places, or well.

    #141437

    Ben
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    Photoshop is a something to be fixed.   I think it is useing  video levels and should be using full video levels.   I hope I am not wrong.   I do not have photoshop.   It is mostly a hobby for me and I like everything to be the best it can.  I have tons of patience and not in hurry.   Reading and experimenting is fun.   I am not good explainer.    Your listening but it does not mean you will fix it.   Some people can fix things and learn.   I hope you found the software for the monitor.    I really do not recommend all gaming software that monitor comes with but it has ways to access its settings in the software.   Im not sure if shadow feature was there or in the software.

    #141438

    Дмитрий Мышков
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    Visually, in my photoshop the image is displayed the same way as in darktable, rawtherapee, etc. ! Besides Firefox, Google Chrome.
    The point is not the difference itself, but the fact that if any program looks at the color management system on my computer, then in such a program I will not see black. There will be some matte black, but not pure black like in Chrome programs, ff.

    #141441

    Vincent
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    We cannot know all things you may have done wrong while calibrating & profiling. Aim for a matrix single curve profile with black point compensation, so profile stores  a fake infinite contrast black. Then validate resulting profile, it it matches, then you do not need XYZLUT profiles or such, also rounding errors in TRC may cause B&W coloration on ont perfect neutral grey displays, so “if it validates OK” better stick to single curve matrix + BPC, unless you try to softproof on a low contrats display (or low contrast calibration mabe on purpose)  where you shoudl disable BPC.

    Then if you say that this issue is still there, and we are talking about BLACK (0,0,0) now showing as intended, measure it. Use argyllcms commandline app “spotread”.
    for example:
    spotread -X path_to_ccss_correction

    Do it for a black RGB 0 0 0 sRGB JPG 1000×1000 px on every program and check “Y”.

    If you are not talking about actual black RGB 000 but about very dark non black tones on sRGB images or sRGB HTML colors, then Photoshop should be working as intened and the others (browsers) do not. sRGB TRC is not 2.2. Photoshop lifts dark tones showing an sRGB image on a perfect gamma 2.2 display profile because sRGB TRC is not 2.2.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by Vincent.
    #141445

    Ben
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    How does Photoshop work on a srgb display profile?

    On a different topic.   Finally got a use out of no_video srgb.   Setting the NVidia drivers dithering and using the Edid primaries to do a srgb clamp help a lot with aligning saturation and it do not figure how it straightend  the hue of green and magenta to go back on track instead of native off by a little but not on target markers at all.    In hcfr.    Saw some red faces streaming NCIS though.   Hope I tuned them out.   Red saturation down -1 and color to 52 instead of 50 to bring yellow to rec 709 boundaries.

    #141446

    Edward Prior
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    I’m beginning to wonder if you are experiencing something like this…

    color-managed applications interpret profiles diffrently

    To me it really seems like inconsistent interpretation of black point compensation.

    #141453

    Guillaume
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    Our eyes see less range in shadows. A dark room you can not see a lot of dynamic range in real life. The browsers are color managed so look correct since the profile is calibrating gamma and color. To get gamma the same in color managed and non color managed you need more controls on your monitor. The best you can do is go by looks and use its shadow detail controls and then rerun a calibration for picture profile. Maybe 2.2 gamma D65 temperature 120 cdm2 brightness. You can do native on brightness and black point if not matching a display to another display. You might see more detail with 100 offset for gammas and bt1886.

    That’s the opposite in fact we see more in darkness :

    FIGURE 241: Plots based on Weber-Fechner (logarithmic) and Steven's (power) laws of psychophysical (sensual) response applied to luminous intensity. If placed at approximately the same (zero intensity) origin, the logarithmic curve (blue) indicates significantly faster initial rate of response to the increasing luminosity than the power curve (red, illustrating rods function, with 0.33 exponent, and green, illustrating cones function, with 0.5 exponent), but slower rate of response at the higher intensity levels. The two curves deviate significantly over the range of intensities; however, farther from the origin, somewhat different logarithmic curve, displaced from the origin (gray), can be constructed to nearly coincide in rate with the power curve over a portion of intensity range (gray plot is left somewhat higher for clarity; it can be lowered simply with a small numerical increase of its constant C, -5). In other words, the rate of eye response to changes in luminous intensity over a limited range of intensities farther from origin can be, in general, closely enough described by either logarithmic or power response.

    #141454

    Guillaume
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    FIGURE 241: Plots based on Weber-Fechner (logarithmic) and Steven’s (power) laws of psychophysical (sensual) response applied to luminous intensity. If placed at approximately the same (zero intensity) origin, the logarithmic curve (blue) indicates significantly faster initial rate of response to the increasing luminosity than the power curve (red, illustrating rods function, with 0.33 exponent, and green, illustrating cones function, with 0.5 exponent), but slower rate of response at the higher intensity levels. The two curves deviate significantly over the range of intensities; however, farther from the origin, somewhat different logarithmic curve, displaced from the origin (gray), can be constructed to nearly coincide in rate with the power curve over a portion of intensity range (gray plot is left somewhat higher for clarity; it can be lowered simply with a small numerical increase of its constant C, -5). In other words, the rate of eye response to changes in luminous intensity over a limited range of intensities farther from origin can be, in general, closely enough described by either logarithmic or power response.

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