Colors too strong after calibrated

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This topic contains 13 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Vincent (@vincent) 3 months ago.

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  • #17420

    Matias (@matias)
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    As a newbie I bought a Dell UP2716D monitor, which has very wide gamut capabilities. I just want the standard calibrated 100% sRGB in 6500K with gamma 2.2 for photos and videos.

    So after I calibrated it with my i1 Display Pro and thousands of patches, results are very good in theory (99,7% coverage, low dE, see attached). But in practice, I feel my basic colors are  too strong. If I take a picture of colorful things like children toys with my Nikon DSLR and compare the picture on my monitor with what I saw, the basic colors (intense reds, blues and greens) are way too saturated compared to real life.

    I do not want to work with extended color spaces (P3, Adobe RGB, etc). I know I would be “wasting” my monitor capabilities by working sRGB only, but still.

    Any suggestion of how to set up calibration so that things just look right and natural for me?

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Matias.
    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Matias.
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    #17430

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    Your profile shows full native gamut, so you calibrated& profiled Standrad OSD mode os Custom Color OSD os something close to that.

    If you want to limit your display to sRGB:

    -use Dell Ultrasharp Color Calibration Solution (DUCCS 1.6.x, I think, search Dell website) and write a hardware calibration with a sRGB or sRGB-like target (Custom xy: sRGB xy primaries for R , G , B, choose D65 white, 2.2 gamma and your desired brightness)
    Then validate results with DisplayCAL (RGphosphor spectral correction if you want to use the same as DUCCS, although it may use WLED PFS phosphor “Panasonic VVX…”)

    or

    -use factory calibration OSD mode to sRGB, and calibrate with DisplayCAL (white is going to be corrected in GPU since I believe that you cannot access OSD RGB gains in sRGB mode, brightness may drop a little after calibration)
    Same colorimeter correction as above or use some community ones (but most of them may be not the best ones, use the ones with native gamut)

    or

    -use Custom color OSD (full native gamut) and DisplayCAL, fix white point inside screen with OSD RGB gains like you may have done in your example.
    Same colorimeter correction as above or use some community ones (but most of them may be not the best ones, use the ones with native gamut)
    Then work in sRGB images in color managed software. Use only that apps: Firefox (enable full color managememet, google it), Photoshop, Lightroom, GIMP/Krita (make sure that it reads your display profile), most DSLR vendor software, old Windows image viewer… etc
    RAW editors may show colors outside sRGB but when exporting to a jpg/png/tiff you may restrict to sRGB colorspace.
    Apps like Office, Win10 Photo viewer and lots of media players will show oversaturated colors and it is not monitor’s or displaycal’s fault… they are not color managed. Use 1st and  2nd solution if you wish to work like in a common sRGB monitor with those apps.

    #17450

    Matias (@matias)
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    Your 2nd option. I set monitor up in sRGB, not OSD RGB calibration, and ran DisplayCal with my settings. 94% sRGB coverage now because it does not have enough volume to cover. See attached.

    Would it be possible for DisplayCal to have a mode where I calibrate my monitor with full volume, and the profile limits it to sRGB volume? So that I get the 99,7% coverage but without the “surplus volume” outside it?

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    #17452

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    Your 2nd option. I set monitor up in sRGB, not OSD RGB calibration, and ran DisplayCal with my settings. 94% sRGB coverage now because it does not have enough volume to cover. See attached.

    Try DUCCS

    Would it be possible for DisplayCal to have a mode where I calibrate my monitor with full volume, and the profile limits it to sRGB volume? So that I get the 99,7% coverage but without the “surplus volume” outside it?

    Profiling does not work that way. Profiling is about measuring a device. Measured native gamut means profile store native gamut.
    Then color managed apps will use that profile to render sRGB “RGB numbers” into accurate (desaturated) RGB numbers in your screen.

    What you want is a calibration with gamut limited to sRGB/Rec709 (making your Dell behave like a sRGB monitor) but BETTER than factory sRGB gamut emulation. Your monitor has that feature.
    This can be done with a LUT3D (not supported by your display) or a lut-matrix-lut (a much simpler approach used by these lowcost widegamut monitors with HW calibration like yours).

    So if you want to write a better calibration into your monitor’s lut-matrix-lut:

    -use DUCCS

    or

    -learn to code in C++, use Dell SDK 2.0 and write a calibration to your Dell since it has this feature.
    Grey & white calibration can use *.cal files generated by DisplayCAL profiling a factory reset CAL1/CAL2 (so it is easier for you) but matrix gamut emulation should be computed by yourself.
    It may be a nice addition to ArgyllCMS/DisplayCAL to compute a vendor agnostic 3x1024x16bit preLUT , 3x3x16bit matrix and 3x1024x16bit postLUT. Then this vendor agnostic lut-matrix-lut could be written or truncated to each vendor capabilities.

    Since you own an i1DisplayPro, use DUCCS, then validate results with DisplayCAL and the same spectral correction used by Dell’s app.

    #17454

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    First try DUCCS and get a sRGB/Rec709 calibration (use custom xy approach, sRGB primaries 2.2 gamma, I’m afraid that “sRGB” preset is going to use sRGB TRC for gamma).
    If it does not work then I wrote a suggested feature for you issue:

    [Feature Request] lut-matrix-lut data for monitors with HW cal

    With the highest integration of DIsplayCAL with Dell SDK 2.0 it may be just a click inside DisplayCAL like you wanted.

    #17456

    Matias (@matias)
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    Again I am a newbie, I tried to understand all the technicalities, but no way I am coding this change.

    I will try DUCCS, never used it before, and then verify with DisplayCal. Will post here my findings.

    I would appreciate if DisplayCal could handle this integration automatically though. Thanks for the feature request.

    #17462

    Matias (@matias)
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    So I installed DUCCS, had to update firmware, got it running. I don’t know what to select on custom xy as you said. So I profiled a large set on sRGB and chose CAL1 memory slot.

    It ran, finished, I select CAL1 on OSD and it is totally garbage, distorted colors, I don’t know what happened.

    But when I select sRGB color space and ran DisplayCal verification, it looks consistent I guess (see attached). Did I calibrate the sRGB memory slot instead?

    Should I ran a DisplayCal profiling on top to fine tune further?

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    #17466

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    So I installed DUCCS, had to update firmware, got it running. I don’t know what to select on custom xy as you said. So I profiled a large set on sRGB and chose CAL1 memory slot.

    It ran, finished, I select CAL1 on OSD and it is totally garbage, distorted colors, I don’t know what happened.

    IDNK what you did. When you choose calibration target there is an option to choose “Custom xy”, then enter xy coordinates for RGB primaries. sRGB ones are found in many webs, just ask google. Wikipedia is a good source for those 6 numbers.

    Also IDNK what you call garbage, run a verification on that CAL1 OSD mode. I’m sure that I warned you to do not shoose sRGB preset un DUCCS beacuse it will write a calibration to get sRGB TRC (gamma) instead of 2.2. On a limited contrast device like yours that TRC makes dark greys to be brighter and may look washed out.

    Also you should know that you have to MANUALLY change default profile attached to display each time you change OSD mode (DisplayCAL tray app simplifies this process, which is very good). This is how color management works. So if you choose CAL1, DCCS will set that CAL1 ICM profile as default displayprofile. Then if you change OSD mode to factory AdobeRGB mode but you do not change default display profile (keeping the one you made fro CAL1 with DUCCS) all images in Photoshop will be wrong.

    Also, IDNK what name you choose for profile, but it is a very bad idea to overwrite default generic profile. I’m very sure that DUCCS will warn you to choose another name before owerwriting it.

    But when I select sRGB color space and ran DisplayCal verification, it looks consistent I guess (see attached). Did I calibrate the sRGB memory slot instead?

    No, factory sRGB, AdobeRGB… etc cannot be owerwritten. You can write CAL1 or CAL2.

    Should I ran a DisplayCal profiling on top to fine tune further?

    You should verify what you get on CAL1. I’m not seeing it in your reports.
    Re do CAL with “custom xy”, sRGB xy primaries coordinates, D65 white and 2.2 gamma wpuld be an improvement too.

    As a side note for future readers:
    People should read about color management (online or paper, community/free or paid/buy) BEFORE buying a widegamut monitor (displays that can show a very high % of AdobeRGB, P3…)
    Most of them won’t need it or won’t need to deal with color management “complications”. For them there are some sRGB-like monitors with HW calibration like some Viewsonics (and amy be some LGs) or some NEC EA series. Not too expensive, specially viewsonics.
    The ones who need widegamut monitors will be LESS stressed when dealing with several OSD mode as each one with ist own emulated gamut (sRGB, AdobeRGB, P3, Native) and display profile (one for each of these modes) if they knew how this stuff works in advance.

    #17474

    Matias (@matias)
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    Who would have thought wide gamut monitors are so inapropriate for using lesser gamut volumes such as sRGB… Or who would have thought that using an up to date version of DUCCS and XRite management software does not work with my UP2716D (it was crashing before the end, I thought before that it was finished but no, just a bug)…

    Now that I downgraded DUCCS and XRite softwares to the version on my monitors support page, setting up sRGB vales according to Wikipedia, it ran, finished, and the resulting profile is loaded. I am using the CAL1 slot on my monitors OSD. Should be all right now.

    But DisplayCal verification is quite bad, see attached. Should I profile with DisplayCal on top of this now?

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    #17477

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    Missing spectral correction for DisplayCAL measurement:

    Instrument:  i1 DisplayPro, ColorMunki Display — LCD (generic)
    Correction:  None

    I’ve explained it before in previous messages. That could explain WP mismatch (but DUCCS is known to cause some problems too regarding WP).

    If after configuring DIsplayCAL properly you measure again and WP is moved from your desired target you can do a GPU calibration to fix whitepoint of top of that HW calibration. ~6dE from desired target with more or less accurate gamma and neutral greys should be close enough to achieve it keeping 95% unique grey levels and without loosing too much contrast… so it is feasible. Banding may arise as a collateral effect depending on your GPU (model/manufacturer/capabilities), as with any other GPU calibration.

    PS1: It’s quite uncommon to choose “Native?” luminance (OSD brightness to 50%?) as calibration target. Are you confortable with such high cd/m2 output? Lowering brightness value manually in OSD could modify slightly whitepoint although its difficult to predict the direction of such dift without testing it.

    PS2: There is no need to choose manually xy for whiteppoint if you want “default whitepoint for sRGB”. “D65” preset for white point is the same. The point of using “Custom xy” setting is just to avoid “sRGB gamma” in “sRGB” preset and set manually 2.2 if thst is what you wish  (it usually is what most users want but unfortunatelly Dell guys did not think of a preset “sRGB gamma 2.2″…)

    PS3: It seems that you overwrote default profile that is installed by driver (or EDID in some OSes). In future attempts my advice is to use a meaninful name like “DELL UP2716D CAL1 sRGB.icm” or something like that. If you wish or need to revover the original one (native gamut, D65 white, nominal 2.2 or sRGB-like gamma), you may try using DisplayCAL and create profile form Edid.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Vincent. Reason: typo

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    #17515

    Matias (@matias)
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    So I reran DUCCS with more patches to make sure, and 160 cd/m².

    Then I downloaded the UP2716D correction for i1Display Pro from here:
    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/?get&type=*&manufacturer_id=DEL&instrument=*&html=1

    And reran Verification using the above correction, with large number of patches. Still white balance is way off.

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    #17521

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    Some of these CCSS are wrong (CCSS build with an OSD that contains gamut emulation), you should use the ones with native gamut (easy tip for spot them = R or G should not seem to be a combination of the others in spectral power distribution plot). Others are at 10nm which should be OK for GB-LEDs but not for widegamut W-LED + *** phorphors like yours. So skip all the ones that are not “3.3nm”
    Also all UP2716D samples there are “wrong”, plot them. One is 10nm (so it cannot see some spikes in red channel), other looks like an sRGB gamut emulatuion.
    CCSS should be taken at native gamut, no matter which OSD mode or HW cal emulation you are using.
    This one looks ok (it the same backlight technology):
    https://colorimetercorrections.displaycal.net/hash/1adf7f7289fbcd591eb009070edfd86e/DELL%20UP2516D%20%231%20B33%20CustomColor%20%28ColorMunki%29.ccss

    Also since you are using DUCCS try to play the game with its rules, choosing RGphosphor or WLED PFS, the one that -non selectable- showed in DUCCS before starting to measure.

    Anyway, after you do the same task with the proper corrections if white is still off (and you notice it by eye… or are worried about that number)use DisplayCAL to correct white in GPU LUTs.

    #17692

    Matias (@matias)
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    Still no good. I give up… 🙁

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    #17695

    Vincent (@vincent)
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    Anyway, after you do the same task with the proper corrections if white is still off (and you notice it by eye… or are worried about that number)use DisplayCAL to correct white in GPU LUTs.

    Verification shows 100% unique grey values, so you did not try.

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